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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stephen King retweets JKR

593 replies

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 28/06/2020 18:43

Grin

A Dworkin quote.

Stephen King retweets JKR
OP posts:
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14
Benny10 · 29/06/2020 21:28

@FloralBunting

I called him thick because like most MRAs, he can't get his head around the idea that the man Linehan is not our great leader. And I'll expend no energy whatsoever arguing with a bloke that women matter and have rights. Others can do so if they wish. I don't care what sexist blokes think. Cheers.
That's not true at all, I asked a question. Why are you trying to turn me into a sexist?
exLtEveDallas · 29/06/2020 21:30

No, you as a man could choose to identify as a woman and then win a ‘women in business’ prize.

Or you as a man could choose to identify as a woman and take a place on an ‘All Woman Shortlist’ for politics (A shortlist that was designed to get more women into parliament because they were underrepresented)

In both circumstances you would be taking the place of a biological woman. Do you honestly think that is fair?

FloralBunting · 29/06/2020 21:32

Not interested, Benny. Peddle your shite at someone who cares.

RHOBHfan · 29/06/2020 21:34

@RHOBHfan

Because a man who feels like a woman and wishes to identify as one is often vulnerable in the way a woman is to sexual assault.

@Benny10 how?

Hi @Benny10

Could you answer this question, please?

aliasundercover · 29/06/2020 21:36

as a man might identify as a woman to get ahead in my career?

If you're a cyclist, or a weight lifter, or do MMA you could do exactly that.

Kantastic · 29/06/2020 21:42

quillette.com/2020/06/07/jk-rowling-is-right-sex-is-real-and-it-is-not-a-spectrum/

This article might help your confusion, Robin

Or this thread
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1271379316291624961.html

Or this article

womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/

Or this editorial:
www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089

Or this recently published scientific article might help:
<a class="break-all" href="https://sci-hub.tw/link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12129-020-09877-8" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sci-hub.tw/link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12129-020-09877-8

If you're pressed for time, I suggest reading that last article, I like how it's written. Here's the first paragraph.
This article says nothing novel. It discusses a fact as well-established as the billions of years of evolution that shaped our species. We live in a world, however, that increasingly ignores such truths, and in which the combination of awareness and courage to set the record straight appears rare.

It's madness, honestly. OF COURSE SEX ISN'T A SPECTRUM, how on earth did people get this brainwashed? We aren't clownfish, we have no reason to be this confused. All our ancestors must be laughing their deceased bollocks/ovaries/overocks (wait, literally none of them had those, how weird) off at us.

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 21:42

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

Benny10 currently when my 11 yr old daughter is getting changed after swimming (not currently I suppose but normal times!) in the large comunal women’s changing room if a male person walks in the girls would I hope be able to scream & their coaches sure as hell would chuck out any male they spotted going into the girls changing, management would help them. Under self ID that male just says (beard, erect penis & all) I’m a woman you bigots. And my daughter & her team mates are; watched by a male without their consent & he can expose himself to them OR they lose out on the sport they love.

That’s the tip of the iceberg. Vulnerable women in prison locked up with abusive males - it’s all ready happening Sad

This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with. There's been some good points made on here. But everyone on both sides of this focuses on the extreme exceptions to the rule rather than the vast majority who are the people actually living this who want to harm no one or take advantage of no one it becomes so emotionally charged

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

aliasundercover · 29/06/2020 21:50

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

How would we check that the appears-to-be-male-but-claims-to-be-a-woman person entering a female space had been through this 'process'? Would they get a badge or something?

Kantastic · 29/06/2020 21:50

This would never happen.

More shit that never happens that is documented to happen regularly. Great. Here's a couple of examples of things that don't happen.

www.gendertrending.com/2014/01/19/gender-identity-laws-allow-transwoman-to-exhibit-his-erect-penis-in-toronto-ymca-womens-locker-room/
www.christianpost.com/news/planet-fitness-loses-appeal-against-woman-who-lost-membership-opposing-transgender-locker-room-policy.html

There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them

What interesting and revealing use of pronouns. Hmm.

However, leaving that aside - could you describe how the process should work in practice? And who this someone should be? I think you might find out that you're a TERF if you carry on with this dangerous line of thinking, Benny.

TehBewilderness · 29/06/2020 21:51

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

No. You need to focus on teaching males to expand their view of males to include those who identify as women and girls. Be an inclusive person and teach others to be inclusive of same sex in same sex spaces.

ThePurported · 29/06/2020 21:53

This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with

Oh bless Grin
You will regret those words Benny.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/06/2020 21:55

That I as a man might identify as a woman to get ahead in my career?

Well, you could, couldn't you?

exLtEveDallas · 29/06/2020 21:56

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

And how would we know he’d ‘been through a process’? Surely the fairer ways would be either a third space option that is mixed sex for anyone that doesn’t mind, or for men to be more welcoming of transwomen in their spaces?

teaandtoast123 · 29/06/2020 21:56

"This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with"
Those silly rape victims. Why didn't they just scream and it would all have been okay.

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 21:57

@RHOBHfan
Aren't lots of transgender women working in prostitution and often killed and raped by men especially in less developed countries?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/06/2020 21:58

Trans crowd? So much grossness in your comment.

Where?

Bananabixfloof · 29/06/2020 21:58

This would never happen, you would scream and he'd be dealt with

Sent to re education camp you mean?
Cos as we keep on saying, he just has to say the magic words "I'm a woman" and hes teflon.

And this has already bloody happened, dont you read the news?

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 29/06/2020 21:59

Oh Benny. You have so much to learn. There's a thread somewhere with a whole load of examples of the stuff that could never happen, happening. I'll see if I can find it for you.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/06/2020 22:00

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

Not a fair compromise. Transphobic AF per Stonewall's acceptance without exception policy.

You're going to fall in with the wrong crowd and get radicalised, Benny.

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 29/06/2020 22:01

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Here you go. Have a read. Fair warning, you may end up feeling a bit sick after a while.

Benny10 · 29/06/2020 22:02

@TehBewilderness

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

No. You need to focus on teaching males to expand their view of males to include those who identify as women and girls. Be an inclusive person and teach others to be inclusive of same sex in same sex spaces.

Ah right so a kind of we dont want them so you Ave them? Doesn't that miss the point a bit?
Lamahaha · 29/06/2020 22:03

Sk is a bastard for tweeting something that makes people who are often very vulnerable feel good about themselves

It's ego-stroking and pampering and pandering with a lie; not recommended for long-term mental health. Because in the end truth will out. They are not women and deep inside they know it.

It's much healthily to face reality and learn to live with it.

robin1984 · 29/06/2020 22:04

@OldCrone

I have read through some of those replies, and i'm concerned about some of the voices cited. The 'intellectual dark web' are not credible academics, they are mainly grifters rebadging old conservative ideas about various inequality being due to some natural order of things, they are certainly not allies to feminism. On the other MN thread, someone cites the quilette, they are pro-eugenics and defend race science. I am not very comfortable if gender critical ideas sits well with those people.

@NotMiranda I agree it is not entirely clear why they are discussing intersex people, but my take away from it is that humans are very complicated. sex is not black and white, therefore I am not surprised if during development people develop in different ways so that mentally their gender does not align with their body.

The neuroscience suggests there are observable differences between trans and cis people and similarities between identified gender and average for that gender, doesn't that suggest there is a physical basis to it. I can see how the intersex discussion informs that, by explaining how complex it is when it comes to the body, it is probably just as complex when it comes to the mind. I agree that a spectrum and outliers do not mean two large clusters men and women don't exist, but what should people who don't neatly fit in do. It seems like the medical establishment position is that affirmative treatment is the most successful, and given the high levels of victimisation, mental health problems and suicide, why are people so resistant to it if it helps people.

It is a very small number of people, and it is men who are the much bigger threat not trans women, why is so much energy put into undermining this one small and vulnerable group. A lot of the threats seem very hypothetical and don't seem to have materialised, I can't imagine most trans women would want to draw attention to themselves in communal changing areas. if they act in a lewd way of course it would be appropriate to ask them to leave, just as if it were a non-trans women. Would people be more comfortable with trans men (who are not men by the logic) being in womens changing rooms? What about androgynous-looking people, or women who happen to look masculine, how will they demonstrate their status as women. When it comes to women's shelters, surely anyone that is a threat to another woman in a shelter would not be tolerated. Don't many of the people who run women's shelters support trans rights to access their services? isn't the biggest threat men that both trans and non-trans women need to be protected from.

When people object to 'trans women are women' it seems a very reductive position and not the simple biological truth they are claiming.

It really seems to be that so many of the arguments against trans rights seem to be very similar to arguments used against gay people in the past, grounded in ideas about simple natural biological truths

I don't know, I am not convinced by these gender-critical ideas at all. It seems like there is no solution and you just want these people to not exist, or be able to live in the world, sadly many take that option

purplepeopleeaters · 29/06/2020 22:04

@Apileofballyhoo

Hopefully Philip Pullman is feeling stupid.
Why, what has he done ? Well done SK.
Benny10 · 29/06/2020 22:04

@aliasundercover

I don't think that any man should be able to walk into a female space because he's said he identifies as a female. There should be a process and someone with everyone's best interests at heart should approve you before you can access them? Fair compromise?

How would we check that the appears-to-be-male-but-claims-to-be-a-woman person entering a female space had been through this 'process'? Would they get a badge or something?

Yea like a card, and if someone entered a space but didn't have the card they would be in trouble as they would be if they were just a regular offender