Rebecca Wrong-Daily Sacked

[Sexnotgender]

For apparently sharing something anti-Semitic.

Oh dear how sad.

There is a distinct failure on the left to recognise that saying “I’m not anti-Semitic, but ...” is precisely the same as saying “I’m not racist, but ....”

"Anti-Semitism, the “socialism of fools” as the German socialist August Bebel is said to have termed the substitution of conspiracy theory for political analysis, is not new on the left—nor, of course, in any way unique to it. A simplistic reading of Karl Marx has meant that finance capital is seen as particularly evil, which in the extreme leads to conspiracy theories about shadowy cabals prepared to sacrifice men and economies in their search for money and power. Since, for historical reasons, many financiers have been Jewish, this easily spills over into sharing the anti-Semitic tropes more readily associated with the nationalist right"

@giantkitten Those examples are specific to West Bank residents. You come across like you’re desperately trying to see something I haven’t covered, but just for you... improved relations since the accords have contributed to a left wing Supreme Court in Israel that has judged in favour of Palestinians on numerous occasions, as well as allowed condemnation of settlements (the settlers are the ones who damage crops) including an effort I personally spearheaded four years ago that provided compensation programs alongside the removal of security from some settlements found to be doing this alongside longer terms penalties for those areas in a future peace deal. I hope that puts your mind at rest, and you can focus on further educating yourself on the realities of the conflict for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Gaza is viewed separately by the entire region. I’m sure you are aware of that, how ever, and just trying to find any holes in my very detailed responses. I could also provide a number of initiatives here, but as you have access to the internet: the disengagement and Sharon’s decision to abandon resources to Gaza. Other issues of interest may be the radio broadcasts and fliers used by the IDF to minimise casualties, the proposed economic zones, the willingness of Israel having worked with Hamas to stop Islamic Jihad, and the money Israel pays to Egypt in security in order to stop them levelling the area.

The only way in which feminists need to concern themselves with this intra-party story is to assess whether RLB was more harshly judged for her dog-whistle anti-Semitism and/or her political incompetence than her male peers would be. And if so, to ensure that male anti-Semites and/or incompetents in the Labor Party are held to the same standards as those applied to women.

New leaders generally shuffle cabinets, shadow or otherwise, promoting and demoting left, right and centre, and tend to use the slightest pretext to remove - in particular - prior opponents. That's politics. In terms of female representation, rather than focus on the individual, look to see how cabinet reshuffles affect the balance of representation. Is she to be replaced by a man where there is a qualified woman? Is this the beginning of a Starmer pattern of removing women from roles of authority? Unlikely but possible. Those are the things to discuss.

I can't pretend to understand a world in which those who live by the cancelling sword are surprised when the sword comes from them.

Perhaps RLB will now have time to reflect on the virtues of free speech, the just and equal treatment of women, and freedom of thought and association.

I’ve literally never seen any of that from those I know on the left.
One of us must be mixing with the wrong people

The 'wrong people'? Where have I heard that recently? Mmmm!

I've lived on peace camps outside of nuclear bases( in the 1980's).....in squatting collectives in London in the 80's too......numerous anti-Capitalist marches; 'Stop the City' and so on.....You name it......I know all about it: about the SWP and the WRP; the anarchists; the anti-fascists and all the rest of the rag tag left coalitions and associations.

I also recounted an encounter ( above) that I had fairly recently with two 'Friends of Palestine' at a music event in a local park ....and not far beneath the surface, once the discussion got going, were the general anti semitic tropes.

Perhaps you fail to see it yourself because you are, currently, so deeply embedded in that culture

ve lived on peace camps outside of nuclear bases( in the 1980's).....in squatting collectives in London in the 80's too......numerous anti-Capitalist marches; 'Stop the City' and so on.....You name it......I know all about it: about the SWP and the WRP; the anarchists; the anti-fascists and all the rest of the rag tag left coalitions and associations

That sounds like Far Left TBH. I don't think any of my friends who are left wing are involved in any of those activities.

Good riddance, but she should be out for her other views. Being anti-Israel is not the same as anti-Semitic. That's just another of those woke inventions that we're supposed to just agree with.

So either he doesn't know the difference or he just used it as an excuse. It's just as well he's not PM (and never likely to be)

That sounds like Far Left TBH. I don't think any of my friends who are left wing are involved in any of those activities

Probably because most political 'activity' is conducted via twitter these days.........

My local MP, Louise Ellman ( Jewish), was effectively bullied & hounded out of her constituency due the take-over of the constituency party by far leftists ( who saw Jeremy Corbyn and the new generation of young Momentum activists as the perfect opportunity to get their foot in the door). They were obsessed with her relationship with 'Friends of Israel'. They hold up Israel as the perfect example/target for their anti-imperialist/anti-capitalist rants - and seem to associate Zionism with evil. They are obsessed.

That sounds like Far Left TBH. I don't think any of my friends who are left wing are involved in any of those activities

By the way, those examples are just standard left wing protests......they are not 'far left' - even if some who coalesce around those sorts of issues are.

Having spent 30 years on the left of politics (not the far left, the mainstream left), I can attest to anti-Semitism being rife.

In the current moment, there are two acceptable isms on the left, and those are anti-Semitism, and sexism. Women and Jews - always used as scapegoats, even by the righteous.

@Justhadathought

"Anti-Semitism, the “socialism of fools” as the German socialist August Bebel is said to have termed the substitution of conspiracy theory for political analysis, is not new on the left—nor, of course, in any way unique to it. A simplistic reading of Karl Marx has meant that finance capital is seen as particularly evil, which in the extreme leads to conspiracy theories about shadowy cabals prepared to sacrifice men and economies in their search for money and power. Since, for historical reasons, many financiers have been Jewish, this easily spills over into sharing the anti-Semitic tropes more readily associated with the nationalist right"

I honestly don't see how you are finding this all over the place. I have occasionally stumbled on people who are frothy about being either pro or anti-Zionist, and some of them are into weird conspiracy theories where the banks and the Catholics and Masons and jews are all part of some sort of cabal.

But I have also met plenty of people who have real criticisms of Israel and specific policies or actions they've engaged with, or who see it as colonialist power, or even talk about some specific Jewish financier doing something they think is inappropriate. Are they also secretly anti-Semitic - maybe, but given that they generally also talk about Jeff Bezos, or have issues with other types of colonialist powers, etc it doesn't make a lot of sense to accuse them of it on spec.

The whole idea of the dog whistle has become very much a protective mechanism, the same way we see in other areas of advocacy or politics. If there is a sub-text you have to show there is a sub-text, it's not enough to say there could be, or someone else who said something similar had one.

Being anti-Israel is pretty anti-semitic. It's basically saying you are anti-a Jewish state.

OTOH, it's perfectly possible to support a Jewish state and critique Israeli governments, or the Israeli military, or specific political or religious movements in Israel or state policy.

Language matters, in this issue, as in others.

@Melia100 that's just so depressing.

I am not so sure that this has been such a gift to Starmer, or that he was so "clever and decisive" in acting in this way.

Atlhough RLB retweeting that article without at least suitable re-framing of the Israel stuff was stupid, I don't think she is anti semitic and I don't think Starmer does either.

On the surface he has been given an opportunity to 1. draw a contrast between the weak-on-renegades Johnson and 2. get rid of an old enemy / rival.

But - Johnson isn't weak. He sacked a ton of cabinet in a shockingly short space of time when it suited him; he stuck by Cummings when it would have been easier to in many ways to cut him loose. Johnson actually demonstrated a sickening degree of bizarre untouchability on both of those occasions. Which Starmer has not, because

2 - by responding so dutifully and immediately to the suggestion that there is anti semitism in the inner circle of the labour party, he is adopting his opponents discourse. WHY do they keep doing this? It's like the fucking deficit all over again. Reframe it! Pick your own language!

I'm not saying there is no anti semitism in Labour; nor that it shouldn't be dealt with; nor that I support RLB. But.

IT's an absolute gift to the Conservative party to have this long running stink, because, among other things, it really hamstrings Labour in its access to the Muslim community. If every party member who has ever been to a meeting where a pro-palestian opinion may have been expressed, they are cutting themselves off - both in talented party members and appeal to certain constituencies - from what could be a really significant vital force for them.

Why do they keep fucking doing this? Why do they keep biting the hand that could feed them, fed their framing from the right?

They're losing women, by throwing them under the bus.
They're losing the working class, by throwing them under the bus.

Why can't they just fucking grow up and frame their own terms of reference?

A different perspective on the retweeted article from Caroline Flint.
twitter.com/CarolineFlint/status/1276203645516857344

I honestly don't see how you are finding this all over the place. I have occasionally stumbled on people who are frothy about being either pro or anti-Zionist, and some of them are into weird conspiracy theories where the banks and the Catholics and Masons and jews are all part of some sort of cabal

I've "found it" because I've been around it...and am therefore familiar with it all.

@Melia100

Being anti-Israel is pretty anti-semitic. It's basically saying you are anti-a Jewish state.

OTOH, it's perfectly possible to support a Jewish state and critique Israeli governments, or the Israeli military, or specific political or religious movements in Israel or state policy.

Language matters, in this issue, as in others.

The idea of a modern Jewish state hasn't even been something all Jews support, on the secular or religious side. There are any number of groups that could or have suggested they should have their own state. It's not straightforward to conclude they all just should be given a country of their own. It's often even complicated when they actually all live in the same region already.

Are they also secretly anti-Semitic - maybe, but given that they generally also talk about Jeff Bezos, or have issues with other types of colonialist powers, etc it doesn't make a lot of sense to accuse them of it on spec

If you define anti-semitism as being hateful towards individual Jewish people, then no.......

But if you define anti-semitism as making sweeping conspiratorial/negative generalisations about the group that is "Jews", then yes!

@Melia100 that's just so depressing

Leftist anti-semitism? Yes.

But, on the positive side, it's entirely possible to be pro the rights of Palestinians and not be an anti-Semite, so there's no intrinsic reason anyone on the left needs to spout anti-Semitic tropes in their quest for justice for Palestinians.

I strongly suspect that Keir wanted to get rid of her fom the off and was looking for any opportunity. She gave it to him.

Some Jewish political thinkers were not in favour of the creation of Israel because they thought it was a way for Europe to wash their hands of their Jews - sending them "back" somewhere, out of sight out of mind. Is that an anti-semitic point of view?

i am interested in the expression "Jewish state" and "only Jewish state" being used as if they are very important and decisive. Is Jewish being used in an ethnic, cultural or religious sense, or something else, in this phrase?

Because I dont really agree with using, say, "English" or "British" in an cultural or ethnic way to be righteous about the right to exist of "the British state". British people are those who are so defined legally and politically. I would not want anyone to be excluded from such a state on the basis of how they could be defined ethnically, culturally, or religiously.

Obv I think people who are legally British subjects should have somewhere legally to live. Same for Israelis or any nationality. But that isn't quite what "Jewish State" means, is it?

The idea of a modern Jewish state

The reality of a modern Jewish state, that frankly, performs no better and no worse than many other Western states, and certainly no worse than many non-Western states, yet comes in for an outsize critique from the left.

If there is evidence that Minneapolis police were trained in 'how to kneel on someone's neck so as to murder them successfully' by the Israeli secret service, then that evidence can be published.

By making this a story about Israel, however, we deflect from the US-specific issue of a militarised police force. While it's fashionable, in certain circles, to blame Israel for many things, Israel-the-nation-state is not responsible for how the US sees fit to police its citizens.

But, on the positive side, it's entirely possible to be pro the rights of Palestinians and not be an anti-Semite, so there's no intrinsic reason anyone on the left needs to spout anti-Semitic tropes in their quest for justice for Palestinians

I have never heard any of my Labour supporting friends even discuss Israel let alone come up with anything anti-semitic. We've never really had that conversation.

Personally, I have an issue with overwhelming military use being used against civilians who are trying to resist against overwhelming provocation. That does not mean I support Hamas - but I have an issue with the policies of the Israeli Government over the past decades towards the Palestinian people.

I wish there could be a solution that works for everyone.

@Justhadathought

I honestly don't see how you are finding this all over the place. I have occasionally stumbled on people who are frothy about being either pro or anti-Zionist, and some of them are into weird conspiracy theories where the banks and the Catholics and Masons and jews are all part of some sort of cabal

I've "found it" because I've been around it...and am therefore familiar with it all.

But then if there are these clear examples that RLB is saying such things, where can we see that? That surely has to be the bar - if you want to say someone is being anti-semitic, you actually have to show that. Not just say, anti-Semites who say clearly anti-Semitic things, who will remain unnamed, and have no connection to this, also say something similar sometimes.

Anyhoo, to reiterate:

The only way in which feminists need to concern themselves with this intra-party story is to assess whether RLB was more harshly judged for her dog-whistle anti-Semitism and/or her political incompetence than her male peers would be.

And if so, to ensure that male anti-Semites and/or incompetents in the Labor Party are held to the same standards as those applied to women.