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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just when you think you couldn’t love JK Rowling more...

999 replies

Deltoids1 · 06/06/2020 22:57

She posts this.

Just when you think you couldn’t love JK Rowling more...
OP posts:
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30
merrymouse · 08/06/2020 21:13

However I stand by my question, what would you do if your child was really suffering with wanting to be a different gender?

Honestly, (and these are my feelings and not a reflection of how I think a stranger on the internet should feel) I would feel that it was tragic that they had such a restricted view of how a man or a woman should behave and feel. I would feel that I had failed them. I would wonder why they believed that it was possible to change sex, and I would worry about their future, given that it is impossible to change sex.

Michelleoftheresistance · 08/06/2020 21:13

I'm enthusiastic that everyone should be able to dress how they like, identify how they like, name themselves how they like, to follow the cultures and beliefs they like, and to do all this without regard for outdated and restricted stereotypes. And passionate that everyone regardless of the above or any characteristic should be able to go about their daily lives without harassment, fear of assault, inequality for jobs, housing, justice, and that needs should be met via provision.

I just don't believe that the above is compatible with the desire of a transactivist political lobby to remove language from female people to describe themselves or to gather together without male presence, to be entitled to enact their cultures or beliefs if these mean separation from males or privacy and dignity from male presence, access to female only health care providers, and access to female only spaces.

Not all females will want this. But some will. Some need this. To remove this is a very significant roll back of women's rights and a removal of meeting needs specific to the half of the human race born with female biology.

Third spaces can be provided and should be provided for those who are not happy or comfortable to use provision for a biological sex incompatible with their personal identity. I don't believe that it is necessary or right to stamp all over females rights, exclude many females from services and access and enact the enormous misogyny involved in this movement in order for trans people's needs to be met. Or that this is somehow fair and right, and 'better' can only be achieved by removing rights from and punishing female people for the happiness of male people.

Or that I am a bad person for feeling that everyones needs should be recognised and met, and that my job as a female is not to get under the bus and stay quiet.

Chocolate50 · 08/06/2020 21:13

@Dances em thank you for the thought but really don't need parenting advice or opinion or empathy actually, if that is what you choose to call it. My parenting has nothing to do with you or this conversation or my opinion actually, and expressing an opinion is not the same and jumping up and down and shrieking, what a strange attitude you have there.

BringbackLang · 08/06/2020 21:13

I disagree, Dances. The lemon syrup soaks through the sponge making it buttery and moist. The lemon gives a a tart flavour. It's like eating a lemon and sugar pancake in cake form.

Wink
Dhalmeup · 08/06/2020 21:13

However I stand by my question, what would you do if your child was really suffering with wanting to be a different gender?

I would wonder what I had done wrong.

What had given my child the impression that they could not, as a woman: hate makeup, be attracted to women, like short hair and clothing usually classed as ‘male’, like sports, building cars etc.

I would wonder why my son felt a man couldn’t like wearing makeup, dresses, sowing, dislike if rowdiness etc.

Where did the negative influences come from that told my children the prescribed behaviours a woman/man should have and made them few that they didn’t ‘fit’ this silly mold.

I certainly wouldn’t be thinking that the best way is to go ‘why yes, we can solve all of your problems by mutilating your perfectly healthy natural body, which is they only one you will ever have. And filling you with hormones. And glossing over the fact you will never actually achieve what your mental illness is telling you that you need to.’

Dances · 08/06/2020 21:14

So giving one's daughter drugs which will make her infertile, weaken bones and have major surgery is the answer, when one would have no certainty that she might change her mind in a year, like many young girls do?

Dances · 08/06/2020 21:16

Maybe you might want you think about your behaviour here then choc

merrymouse · 08/06/2020 21:17

truthfairy, I truly believe that although chocolate and I have different beliefs about sex, chocolate has acted in what she believes to be the best interests of her child. However, chocolate's actions are based on the belief that it is possible to opt out of sex, whereas you have been arguing that all trans people believe that sex exists.

Those beliefs are not compatible.

BringbackLang · 08/06/2020 21:18

What insulting things? Did I miss that or is it a case of misrepresentation like with the JKR tweet. I mean only one person lost their temper and started insulting and swearing at everyone...

Chocolate50 · 08/06/2020 21:18

@merrymouse how sad, that you would feel that it was to do with you and not something else, that you would take it personally - it is not a reflection of a parent - a bit like being gay which many parents years ago disowned their child because of, or would berate them, send them away to be fixed in some mental health institution. Yet now we are educated, which has taken a few generations, we don't self blame - we accept and we are compassionate and still love our child no matter what.

BaronessFloralBunting · 08/06/2020 21:19

To those saying they would ask where they had gone wrong as a parent when their female child said they were a boy or vice versa, yes, that was my exact feeling. And actually, the fact that she started out in a family who were into a highly gendered ideology brought me up very short and forced me to dig into all the conditioning which honestly changed all our lives.

But genuine love, communication and patience were the best responses I managed and recommend.

truthfairy · 08/06/2020 21:19

@tehbewildernesa

"The vast majority of responses Jo Rowling has received from transitioning advocates have consisted of exactly that."

Because I have nothing better to do I just went through the first 106 responses to JKR. 32 were politely in agreement, 70 politely in disagreement, 4 were in disagreement and abusive (by which I mean telling her to fuck off, or something along those lines). I did not come across any that came remotely close to those you described. That is not to say they don't exists, I am sure they do, but they are clearly nowhere near in the majority. So who is lying or ignorant?

Ritascornershop · 08/06/2020 21:21

I’ve never seen an explanation from a trans advocate as to why body dysmorphia expressed as anorexia is not helped by anyone agreeing the person with disordered eating is overweight, nor why Rachel Dolezal hopes to present as black but is not actually black, however men in women’s clothes are an authentic subset of women/being a woman is all in the head and anyone can opt in. Why is it just trans and not other dysmorphias?

PIKNIK20 · 08/06/2020 21:22

he tale of JK Rowling, finally revealed as a modern-day witch guilty of wickedness over sex and gender, is one of those stories that captures just about everything bad about this issue and about public conversation conducted via, and shaped by, social media. Rowling’s crime was to tweet that biological sex is real and should not be subordinated to the subjective concept of gender.

'My life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it's hateful to say so,' she wrote. 'If sex isn't real, there's no same-sex attraction. 'If sex isn't real, the lived reality of women globally is erased.'

Cue firestorm.

If you haven’t seen this discussed on Twitter or another platform, just google her and pick from one of a few dozen news items published about the author and her views by media outlets around the world. This illustrates the first flaw of a Twitterised public culture. Most of those pieces of 'news' consist of repeating (or just reproducing) reactions on Twitter to Rowling’s own tweets on sex and transgender issues.

Here I may sound like an old-fashioned hack, but I do remember a time when 'news' meant more than 'things some people are saying'. The traditional vox pop, a report based on a few non-randomly selected remarks from a few non-randomly selected people, has always had its place in journalism, but that place was rightly low down the list of important, serious formats.

No longer. Now though 'some people said things on Twitter' is news, apparently. At the same time, a lot of media executives have come to worry that people don’t value their products enough to pay for them any more. I offer no further comment on that striking coincidence.

The second lesson of modern life played out in the degradation of the transgressor Rowling is that the world must always be divided neatly into good people and bad people. Good people are entirely good and so is everything they do. Bad people are bad, and likewise everything associated with them.

Hence those 'stories' are full of people on Twitter weeping at Rowling’s betrayal and how it poisons her work and very existence. People who just loved the Harry Potter books now simply cannot bear to think of those stories now that they know their author holds opinions that differ from their own, apparently. Perhaps this surprises you. Perhaps you think: surely it’s possible to disagree with someone on one thing without presuming them evil? Can’t you dislike an artist’s stance on an issue while also seeing merit in their work? Apparently not.

It will be no surprise if the Rowling 'story' soon includes 'calls' (from people on Twitter, obviously) for her books to be removed from libraries, withheld from children or just burned. And how did JK Rowling go from good to bad? How did the creator of one of the world’s favourite childhood stories go from being beloved and benign to the someone who is routinely (and tellingly) described on Twitter as a 'c**t'?

This lesson of modern life is most particular to the trans debate, though it relates to the broader Twitterisation of culture. Bad people don’t just do bad things. They have bad motives. It is impossible for someone to say something with which you disagree for decent, honest reasons. People who reach different conclusions to you are not well-meaning but mistaken. They are wrong and bad. End of.

In the trans debate, this means that anyone who – like evil old JK – raises questions and doubts about the implications of legally recognising as female any male-born person who describes themselves as a woman is, ipso facto, a hateful transphobe. The only viable explanation for such actions is bigotry and prejudice.

This is where the narrative of trans orthodoxy is at its most fragile, and this is one of the reasons for the relentless barrage of abuse now directed at Rowling. (The other reasons are mostly to do with the way a certain sort of person involved in this issue feels and reacts when women disagree with them and refuse to comply with their preferences.) How on earth does the priesthood of transgenderism explain to their flock that JK Rowling has become a trans-exclusionary radical feminist, one of those 'terfs' who it’s OK to threaten or even assault?

I don’t know Rowling, but I suspect she would not object to being called progressive and liberal. She has given tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds to charities. She donated to Gordon Brown’s Labour party, was friendly with Barack Obama and used to work at Amnesty International (long before it embraced trans orthodoxy, I should note). She opposed Brexit. She is not, in short, someone who can be described as a social conservative. If Left and Right still mean anything, she’s on the Left.

So are many of the women (and men) who have gone before her on the road to terfdom. Most of the feminist campaign groups and grassroots organisations that have sprung up to raise concerns about the interaction of 'trans rights' and women’s legal and social status are driven by women on the left of politics. Woman’s Place UK, the most prominent of those groups, was founded by lifelong trade unionists. Among their supporters in the Labour movement were several senior figures in the inner circle of Jeremy Corbyn.

All this is awkward for the witchfinders now seeking to put the scold’s bridle on the wicked Rowling. Having explained, tirelessly, that anyone who does not repeat the catechism of transgenderism ('Trans women are women, trans men are men, non-binary people are non-binary') is guilty of mortal sin, they still struggle to explain where that sin originates.

The best hope of the zealots is to suggest that the failure to embrace trans orthodoxy is somehow part of a nasty, regressive social conservative agenda driven by mysteriously powerful right-wing Americans. Look at Trump and those Republicans fixated on bathrooms! (Ignore inconvenient facts like Hillary Clinton’s refusal to say the holy words ) Remember Section 28 banning teaching about homosexuality! (Ignore the fact that sexuality and gender are different things.) The terfs are all part of the global march of regressive populists intent on unravelling progressive societies. Or something.

And this is why JK Rowling – clever, thoughtful, nuanced JK Rowling – presents such a threat to all those people who talk about 'terfs' and what should happen to women who say things they don’t like. Because if you’re going to shout about the views of JK Rowling and her wickedness, you’re going to have to come up with an explanation for that wickedness, and in so doing, to ask people to reach their own conclusions.

Here are two broad explanations for JK Rowling, and a lot of other women (and men) of progressive, liberal views challenging transgender orthodoxy by asking about its consequences for women, their rights and their security.

The first explanation is that a lot of people who have previously been firmly on the liberal-left side of politics have – secretly – been converted to social conservatism by right-wing ultras, on this one issue alone.

The other way to explain JK Rowling’s journey down that road to terfdom is that she is an intelligent women who has taken a careful look at the issue and decided for herself that there is nothing progressive or kind or liberal about a movement that encourages autistic children to be given untested drugs. That tells adolescents uncomfortable with their bodies that surgery brings happiness and the alternative is suicide. That tells lesbians they’re bigots if they won’t consider sex with women who have penises. That showers women (and really, it is just women) who question these things with violent and sexualised abuse.

I don’t know JK Rowling, but I know which of those two explanations I find more plausible.

WRITTEN BY
James Kirkup
James Kirkup is the Director of the Social Market Foundation and a former political editor of The Scotsman and The Daily Telegraph

NotBadConsidering · 08/06/2020 21:24

Christ, pages 30 and 31 is where it starts. You can almost see it can’t you. All in their WhatsApp group together or something similar. “Right, let’s go everyone, let’s post together and get them to shut up!”

Lamahaha · 08/06/2020 21:26

Chocolate, I gave you my serious answer. That is what I would absolutely do. Nothing else.

merrymouse · 08/06/2020 21:27

a bit like being gay which many parents years ago disowned their child because of, or would berate them, send them away to be fixed in some mental health institution.

It's not at all like being gay.

Both my son and my daughter are theoretically capable of being attracted to/having sex with/have a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex.

Neither of them can change sex.

that you would take it personally

Why would I not feel that it is a reflection of my parenting? I have aimed to bring them up to believe that they are enough as they are - that they don't have to conform or behave in a certain way to have value - that they should love who they want and behave and dress as they want, without being concerned about sexist stereotypes.

However, changing sex is a physical impossibility. Why would I want them to believe that accepting their bodies depends on achieving something that is fundamentally unachievable?

Pertella · 08/06/2020 21:28

chocolate
As far as many people on here are concerned, there is no argument to be had is there? You're just...right... the hyenas have spoken. No room for an alternative opinion or different view.

Haha, you don't even see the irony do you!

Whinging about no argument to be had when it was the TRAs and Stonewall who started with the #nodebate shit.

The level of abuse being flung at JK right now and you're bitching about no room for alternative opinions Hmm

Maybe when GC women start issuing death threats, rape threats, threats of violence fixing and abuse when someone posts something they disagree with then you might have a point.

Chocolate50 · 08/06/2020 21:28

@merrymouse and your point is? the point of a discussion is that people are allowed to have different opinions, if you have read into both arguments properly that is, and so what if @truthfairy has an alternative perspective?
I think sex is whatever you want it to be, my belief is just as valid as yours or anyone elses for that matter, why do you think that your opinion is 'the' one, just because you say it is? The world is full of 'facts' that are unproven, the fucking bible is based on myth, yet many people believe in god almighty.
@Dances you have made your own trajectory as to what my story is just based upon a line in a post, your assumption is not the case at all, why are you assuming that my son is a child? or that there is not another complex story behind his decision? you are basically trying to push your ill thought out and uninformed opinions of someone who you know absolutely nothing about - you dont' know the history or the situation or anything about his age or what age he was when he transitioned. How dare you make such a rude and unforgiving assertion. This is exactly the sort of opinionated nonsense that you should be challenging yourself about, but one that i am sure that the likes of jk rowling would be proud of

CaraDune · 08/06/2020 21:28

@NotBadConsidering

Christ, pages 30 and 31 is where it starts. You can almost see it can’t you. All in their WhatsApp group together or something similar. “Right, let’s go everyone, let’s post together and get them to shut up!”
Yup.

Of course, what they don't realise is we've been here before. Many times. So many times it's like bloody groundhog day.

And not just TRAs. Most of us on here cut our teeth on the old days of MRA invasions, fathers4justice, all that stuff.

They all make the same mistake. They think we're mummies therefore thick and uneducated. They don't realise there are lawyers, scientists, medics on here. They don't realise we've been thinking about this stuff for years. They don't realise that many of us (being old school lefties and trade union activists) started from a "just be kind" position, and only when we were really pushed into the realisation that we were being played for fools by people who intended to take our political voice from us, did we start to push back.

Chocolate50 · 08/06/2020 21:30

@merrymouse good for you

Michelleoftheresistance · 08/06/2020 21:31

No room for an alternative opinion or different view.

Interesting statement considering the lack of tolerance or room being made for opinions or views here differing from yours.

It's amazing how this demand for tolerance and listening only ever goes one way, and is issued by those who certainly aren't modelling it.

NotBadConsidering · 08/06/2020 21:32

And what’s the aim? To get the thread to 1000 posts so it will just disappear? There will just be another one. I went to bed at page 27 and now it’s on page 38. Page 31 is where it starts and it’s clear it’s a deliberate influx of nutters determined to derail. They just cannot handle the sunlight Rowling brings. They cannot stand the scrutiny, as evidenced by the inability to answer questions. It’s so transparent.

testing987654321 · 08/06/2020 21:34

I think sex is whatever you want it to be, my belief is just as valid as yours or anyone elses for that matter, why do you think that your opinion is 'the' one, just because you say it is?

Superb! How does anyone get through life thinking words can mean whatever they want? All opinions equally valid?

What utter nonsense.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 08/06/2020 21:34

It's amazing how this demand for tolerance and listening only ever goes one way, and is issued by those who certainly aren't modelling it

Yup

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