Just when you think you couldn’t love JK Rowling more...

[Deltoids1]

She posts this.

Such eloquence...

And that's when you know you are losing an argument...

You can't answer so you resort to abusive language. This isn't twitter, that crap doesn't work here.

What now your suggesting that you have to write a bag full of crappy books to have an informed opinion

No you just have to express an informed opinion.

Not too many post modernists on MN. We tend to insist on the material reality of the informed opinion.

@ChrisInTheNorth

When did Mumsnet become a haven for people who hate?

Why are so many posts here celebrating prejudice against people who don't match up to your ideas of what a woman should be like?

Its unbeliveable, Frankly it makes me want to disassociate entirely from this website

Reality has a well known anti-trans bias.

Weird that a site called MUMSnet might know something about the biology of being a women...

As far as many people on here are concerned, there is no argument to be had is there? You're just...right... the hyenas have spoken. No room for an alternative opinion or different view.
It might be you as parent dealing with your own child transitioning. The world is changing, gender is changing, sex is changing.
It was the exact same phobic responses from people who thought they were right about gay people being wrong historically. Although gay people were criminalised there was also an inherent view that this is entirely wrong.
Jk Rowling will not be remembered by the growing trans community as a good or positive role model, person or writer. If she continues with this trajectory she'll be remembered as the fuckwit she is.

I would like someone to explain why gender (subjective) should be prioritised over sex (objective, measurable).
Not in ones own life obviously, anyone can prioritise what they like there.

But in matters of public policy.

Trans people can't exist WITHOUT reference to sex. What are they transing from?!

Their entire identity is based on the point they are opposite to the sex they were born. Or they are without sex unlike other people. And they spend years chopping off bits / hiding bits that define their sex.

Their entire energy is spent on denial of sex whilst simultaneously declaring their sex. (Or lack of).

If we didn't have sex, then they would lose all identity.

No transwoman has ever been born with female parts. No transman has ever been born without female parts. No non binary person has ever been born without sex parts of some kind.

They know it, because its part of their body. The fact they use any means to deny this, whilst claiming its abusive to point this out doesn't change the fact they still have / had those body parts. Biology isn't prejudice. And they can claim it is til they are blue in the face. People will still be born from male and female gametes produced by female and male bodies and this will never change no matter what language they try and frame it with.

Almost as though people who might use this sight might come to realise that biology - your experience of pregnancy, childbirth, infertility, menopause, endometriosis, ovarian cancer - doesn't give a f* about your identity and that you need sex based rights regardless of your identity.

Could you answer my question chocolate50?

New to this, ain't ya?

The Eloquence.

'High horse bullshit'?

That's all a bit specieist, that is. You need to have a word with yourself.

The last two pages are a really weird read.

"JK's saying trans people don't believe in sex..."

Well, no, she was actually saying "sex - the material reality of sex - is an important thing that underpins understanding where the oppression of women comes from. Women have sex-based rights to protect them from this oppression. Therefore defending sex based rights is important."

"Waffle waffle, sex and gender is the same... or is it sex and gender aren't the same... we all believe in sex... except on the other threads where we've said it's an invention of white colonialism... but either way, there aren't really male people on twitter calling women cunts and threatening violence, that's just your foetid imaginations, or if there are, they're nothing to do with trans apart from the trans flag baseball bats... oh fuck off the lot of you..."

I'm still not sure I've discerned an actual argument amidst the waffle.

Mine's quite simple.

Sex is too do with biology. It gets weaponised against us, it's the material basis of our oppression.

Gender (old fashioned social sciences sense, aka sex stereotypes) is the ideological system about appropriate behaviours, dress, separate spheres all the rest of the crap used to prop up the system of oppression.

Gender (new fangled Stonewall sense of internal sense of one's identity) is akin to a belief in eternal souls - a religious belief. I don't have that religious belief. So frankly, it's irrelevant to my political struggle (which is a very real one - nearly 50 years after the equal pay act, I still had to take my then employer to court to get equal pay for equal work).

That's what I'm all about - the practical consequences of real life sexism politically in the real world. Believe in gender unicorns/genderbread people all you want, I don't fucking care. So long as it doesn't impede my political struggle to be treated as an equal human being.

That sounded snippy - sorry.
I would like a trans advocate to answer that question, and you're here - it's a request, sincere.

Sex is not changing, Chocolate50, that is total nonsense.
As for the "no argument to be had" stuff - you haven't presented any argument. Just told us we're all wrong and J K Rowling is a universally despised fuckwit.

I suggest that some problems on here get educated. You say that you are informed parents. What would you be saying if your child said to you that they aren't happy with their gender & had gone to the GP or had an assessment & this had medically backed up that they should be assigned to a different gender?
Would y'all freak out & start jumping up & down about men not being able to have periods? Anyone who claims they would care one iota about periods are either an absolutely ignorant person or deluded. You would be concerned about your child, and this would have nothing to do with gender. Whatever your beliefs you would want your child or young adult to feel comfortable in their body. That is all you would want.
And that's the exact compassion you need to develop for trans people. The ill educated hate I'm reading stoked by people like jk Rowling is just about prejudice & despite her claims about having researched etc etc she clearly knows nothing about it.

@truthfairy

Seriously *@datun* ? "aligning themselves with men who say they want punch, rape and kill women for saying sex is fucking real." That's what you think trans women are? Have you met any? No doubt you will supply me now with an example of a trans woman who has said some of those things but you must know that does not represent the whole demographic, just as a cis gendered criminal does not represent all cis gendered people. So that is actually a really hateful and transphobic thing to say.

The vast majority of responses Jo Rowling has received from transitioning advocates have consisted of exactly that. They even suggested flooding her Ickabog children's picture thread with their dick pics. We know who we are talking about. They have been screaming abuse at us for years. You appear to be the one who is either ignorant or lying.

*some people

No room for an alternative opinion or different view.

MN accepts all sorts of views - on Brexit, grammar schools, the acceptability of dogs in public spaces - it's odd that you seem unable to express your point of view - is there a problem with your internet?

I suggest that some problems on here get educated.

So long as it’s educated in the approved manner.

Are you from the Deep South of America? If not, please don't use "y'all". It's just a bit embarrassing.

If I had a daughter who came to me saying she felt like she was a boy, I'd bloody well want to explore what it was about being female in our crappy sexist society that was driving this - sexual abuse, the routine sexual harrassment all of us have to put up with, normal teenage feelings of dysphporia about one's changing body (exacerbated by the porn-saturated society we live in), undiagnosed ASD. I'd adopt a policy of watchful waiting, and try to find a decent therapist to explore all possible angles with her, not some medically negligent clown who went down the affirmation only route. And I certainly wouldn't be putting her on puberty blockers which might well cause irreversible osteoporosis and put her on a pathway to irreversible cross sex hormones and mutilating surgery.

Talking of educating oneself - have you actually read what's involved in a phalloplasty? And how hugely, massively likely it is to go wrong? And you still think this is a good outcome?

The world is changing, gender is changing, sex is changing.

Exactly how is ‘sex’ changing. Hasn’t done throughout the history of humanity.

Have you got something new to tell us?

Tedious false gay analogy.

Letting adults love and marry the person they love is a human right.

Forcing girls to undress in front of males
in changing rooms because they think they have a biologically impossible female brain - is not.

@Chocolate50

As far as many people on here are concerned, there is no argument to be had is there? You're just...right... the hyenas have spoken. No room for an alternative opinion or different view. It might be you as parent dealing with your own child transitioning. The world is changing, gender is changing, sex is changing. It was the exact same phobic responses from people who thought they were right about gay people being wrong historically. Although gay people were criminalised there was also an inherent view that this is entirely wrong. Jk Rowling will not be remembered by the growing trans community as a good or positive role model, person or writer. If she continues with this trajectory she'll be remembered as the fuckwit she is.

Transgender advocacy maintains the social hierarchy while redefining homophobia and misogyny as progressive.

Oh Chocolate, chocolate, chocolate. You honestly think none of us have kids who have said just that? Bless.