Munroe Bergdorf makes George Floyd/Black Lives Matter all about Munroe Bergdorf

[GiantKitten]

What MB was cancelled for was not what this is all about, was it?

twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1267460238678069249?s=20

Is there a term yet for what firms like L'Oreal are doing now

I have heard the term "passive progressive" (a play on passive aggressive that I didn't understand the first few times I saw it written) bandied about. I quite like it.

That's not bad! I'd prefer something a bit more specific but "passive progressive" covers all kinds of situations.

They should all just STFU really

I don’t think any black person, talking about their experiences as a black person and calling out hypocrisy should ‘STFU’ really.

Don’t try to silence people’s experiences ever but especially don’t attempt to silence a black persons experience on a day people have dedicated to listening to black experiences after the horror that has happened.

Monroe is absolutely right to be pissed off and no one should shout down her experience and tell her to shut up.

The capacity to go about your business without being shot by police etc is not a privilege. It is everyone's right.

Yes, and "rights" are things that we're taught we all intrinsically have simply by virtue of being human; privilege in this context is could be defined as 'having an expectation that this right will be considered an objective fact rather than a social contract that the other party may or may not choose to comply with.'

As I say, there's discussion to be around what "human rights" means in practice. The situation in the States makes it clear that human rights are granted or withheld at the discretion of the oppressor class.

Don’t try to silence people’s experiences ever but especially don’t attempt to silence a black persons experience on a day people have dedicated to listening to black experiences after the horror that has happened

I’ll do whatever I please. Bergdorf wants to tell L’Oréal to shut up. Bergdorf is telling L’Oréal to shut up because L’Oréal sacked Bergdorf from a cosmetics contract for saying stupid things on social media. Bergdorf wants to make this all about Bergdorf and equate such an event with the murder of a black man by police in America. But Bergdorf was “torn apart by the world’s press”. Give me a break. The world’s press?

So yeah, I don’t think Bergdorf’s experience of not being paid to advertise eye liner any more is worth listening to. Like I said, two narcissists arguing over Twitter.

NotBadConsidering you really don’t get it do you? Monroe was sacked by them because she spoke about their experience as a black person in a white world. They’ve then come out and acted woke and caring about black lives like they weren’t part of the problem. Monroe was rightfully angry and pointed this out.
Sharing your views on race divisions when you are in the middle of it is not ‘Saying Stupid things on social media’, yes Monroe was angry in her tweets but anyone who isn’t angry at the injustice in the world Is not paying enough attention.

I do get it. Bergdorf has a valid point about Loreal’s hypocrisy. But Bergdorf made it all about them. Not a single mention of George Floyd. All about Bergdorf. And Bergdorf has their own history of hypocrisy, telling women what being a woman is.

So, in my view, when two parties are both hypocritical, both narcissistically trying to advance their own ends, and forgetting the bigger issue at hand, it would be ideal if they both - L’Oréal and Bergdorf - just STFU.

And the Royal Navy didn’t end it for benevolent reasons. Britain’s manufacturing was miles ahead and this was intended to dry up the competition.

Should this necessarily be a problem? A number of 'advances' in human society were and are done for selfish or strategic reasons, in addition to altruistic ones. Is it preferable to allow certain issues and practices to continue for decades or even centuries until the 'morally ideal' moment turns up? What if it never arrives? Finding broad support and agreement is difficult as humans will always have differing viewpoints and people have a tendency to look for what's in it for them.

But then it is shit of Loreal to use the very thing they dropped Munroe for, to score virtue signalling points later down the line.

A couple people have said this, but I really don't see it.

I don't think supporting BLM, or even the idea of systemic racism or white privilege (which I think can be unhelpful concepts in many cases,)are much like what MB said that resulted in being sacked.

None of those are saying that racism is in white people's dna, or that they invented exploitation and oppression, were the best at it through all of history, etc.

There is a huge gulf between those positions and that people don't seem to see it is concerning.

This whole thread is full of racism. If you believe that men, as a class, are inherently oppressive and benefit from the subjugation of women, then surely it’s not a huge leap to understand that if you’re white, you are inherently benefiting from racist structures whether you like it or not. I’m white. I have zero issue with black people saying all white people are racist. I understand what they mean. Saying ‘not all white people’ is no different to ‘not all men’. If you find it offensive I would suggest the problem is with you, not MB or any other black person.

This whole thread is full of racism. If you believe that men, as a class, are inherently oppressive and benefit from the subjugation of women, then surely it’s not a huge leap to understand that if you’re white, you are inherently benefiting from racist structures whether you like it or not. I’m white. I have zero issue with black people saying all white people are racist. I understand what they mean. Saying ‘not all white people’ is no different to ‘not all men’. If you find it offensive I would suggest the problem is with you, not MB or any other black person.

No, these ideas are not something that every person who is not a racist believes. Nor do all black people, or women, think that way.

This idea that there is only one correct way to think or talk about these things, and it's self-evident, is really quite toxic.

If you care about me or #blacklivesmatter, don't let @lorealparis get away with this.

This is MB’s final tweet at end of the rant. I think it reveals MB’s priorities.

Goosefoot I don’t profess to know what all black people think as I haven’t asked them all, but more importantly, when people talk about their experiences of oppression, the only correct response is to listen and let them lead the conversation, not tell them how they’re explaining it wrong. It’s possible to believe a class of people collectively has a problem while also being aware that not every individual in that class behaves the same way.

@dodgeballchamp

This whole thread is full of racism. If you believe that men, as a class, are inherently oppressive and benefit from the subjugation of women, then surely it’s not a huge leap to understand that if you’re white, you are inherently benefiting from racist structures whether you like it or not. I’m white. I have zero issue with black people saying all white people are racist. I understand what they mean. Saying ‘not all white people’ is no different to ‘not all men’. If you find it offensive I would suggest the problem is with you, not MB or any other black person.

No this thread isn't full of racism, stop being manipulative.

If all white people are racist does that include the white people who have black partners and black children? Are mothers racist against their own black children?

If a black person marries a white person is it an act of internalised racism?

Racism isn’t only about actively disliking black people or indeed anyone who isn’t white. It’s about so much more than that. Historical structures, ingrained prejudices we may not even realise we have, the simple fact that white people are less likely to experience things like being stopped and searched or having inadequate care during birth by virtue of being white, the way products are designed and marketed... I could go on. In short, you may never have said anything insulting or derogatory to a black person in your life, but yes, you can still have racist ideas or beliefs. You can have black friends and date or marry black people and still hold racist assumptions. A lot of the time it isn’t deliberate. Racism isn’t just an active choice, that’s the tip of the iceberg

I don’t profess to know what all black people think as I haven’t asked them all, but more importantly, when people talk about their experiences of oppression, the only correct response is to listen and let them lead the conversation, not tell them how they’re explaining it wrong. It’s possible to believe a class of people collectively has a problem while also being aware that not every individual in that class behaves the same way.

Listening to people is not the same as agreeing that their analysis, or their lens for analysis, is correct. You can't talk about serious issues or ideas from that perspective.

Nor is the way you you are defining the problem of racism, or the language you are using, neutral, and they aren't the only ways to think about racism as a class or system problem. I didn't suggest that some don't feel there is a class based problem, though I believe some do. I am saying there are a variety of ways to think about and talk about that problem, views on the cause both historically and in contemporary situations.

You yourself are choosing one particular analysis and presenting it as if it is wholly justified by "listening to people's experiences". And somehow even the varieties of analysis within the black community - the ones whose experiences somehow justify your choice - don't count? I am really trying to get my head around how you are connecting those dots.

The only think I can really think is that the progressive media has presented this one way of thinking as the only one that is non-racist to such a degree that people aren't aware that there is even any disagreement about it. Not aware of disagreement across the reasonable political spectrum and even less aware that there is disagreement on the left.

Who does Munroe want you to care about? Munroe.

Who does Munroe want you to punish? L’Oréal.

I mean it’s all right there, Bergdorf wrote it themselves.

So people can discuss the definitions and impacts of institutional racism all they like, but to infer Bergdorf’s tweets are about anything other than Bergdorf’s personal beef with a cosmetics company is not something I intend to do.

I think Munroe has a point about the hypocrisy of L'Oreal but shouldn't be surprised that a company in a capitalist society is opportunistically exploiting virtue signalling to promote their brand - after all that is why they were hired in the first instance and fired after the first whiff of controversy. That is part of living by the sword and dying by the sword. We already know institutions , brands, companies are virtue signalling in this 'be woke' culture to get more sales - this is capitalism in action and yes, Munroe is right to be angry and frustrated by it I don't blame them. After all most women on this board are pissed off at companies/institutions/brands for exactly the same thing when they virtue signal about 'gender' and throw women under the bus, so in this instance I totally get why Munroe is angry and I think they are well within their rights to be angry.

Just one thought though I suspect Munroe would be really angry about blackface too - it being insulting, stereotyping and profoundly wrong. Which leads me to:

Honestly I don't have energy to talk about the violence of men any more. Yes ALL men. Because most of ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a sex is built on the backs, blood and death of women. Your entire existence is drenched in misogyny. From micro-aggressions to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s.
Come see me when you realise that misogyny isn't learned, it's inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege. Once men begin to admit that their sex is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk. Until then stay acting shocked about how the world continues to stay f at the hands of your ancestors and your heads that remain buried in the sand with hands over your ears.

But Bergdorf’s tweets don’t mention George Floyd at all. It’s all about them and L’Oréal, with Bergdorf’s own history of appropriation.

I don't know how far back you are looking, but Munroe has definitely mentioned George Floyd a lot on their Insta, and it seems like the conversation has moved forward into something bigger, as it has everywhere.

It does look like some people on this thread are determined to put MB in the wrong on this simply because of what has gone before (ie. MB being trans and disagreeing with them on women's rights etc).

Like I said, I don't like MB, and I think they are a hypocrite because of what they do to women, but I'm not going to criticise them on this. And to call a black person a 'narcissist' for calling out shitty behaviour with regards to BLM is fucking out of order to be honest.

No wonder people think that MN is a bastion of 'white feminism'.

It does look like some people on this thread are determined to put MB in the wrong on this simply because of what has gone before (ie. MB being trans and disagreeing with them on women's rights etc).

I think Munroe is right about this. I also think they are a hypocrite because they are right about this.

Yes, exactly, Pankhurst.

If this thread was about a white woman who was fired for calling out oppression by men And was then angry when that same employer publicly posted about support and caring for women at a time it’s ‘fashionable’, it would be unanimously in support for her.
Instead people are bending over backwards to explain why a black person should shut up about their experiences and anger at a time when we should be listening to them.

I do get it. Bergdorf has a valid point about Loreal’s hypocrisy. But Bergdorf made it all about them. Not a single mention of George Floyd. All about Bergdorf.

What disingenuous bullshit. One only has to look at Bergdorf's social media the last week or so to see that they have been talking plenty about George Floyd and others, sharing links to petitions etc. The Loreal thing only happened a couple of days ago anyway.

Can't believe I am defending Munroe Bergdorf tbh!

If this thread was about a white woman who was fired for calling out oppression by men And was then angry when that same employer publicly posted about support and caring for women at a time it’s ‘fashionable’, it would be unanimously in support for her.

To continue the analogy: suppose the woman had originally done a deal with Playboy to promote their brand. And then she wrote a post about how exploitation of women by the porn industry was a bad thing, and Playboy decided they didn't want to work with her any more. And then at some later date Playboy made some virtue-signalling comment about the oppression of women.

Of course none of us would be impressed by the virtue-signalling. But I doubt if very many of us would be impressed by the woman's decision to take money from Playboy to promote their brand in the first place. And then if the woman started getting angry about the virtue-signalling, we would shrug our shoulders and say: what did you expect?