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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Munroe Bergdorf makes George Floyd/Black Lives Matter all about Munroe Bergdorf

288 replies

GiantKitten · 02/06/2020 12:05

What MB was cancelled for was not what this is all about, was it?

twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1267460238678069249?s=20

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 02/06/2020 14:29

I haven't said I'm surprised about corporate hypocrisy, I have simply said I agree with MB's point. As far as I remember L'oreal dropped MB for the race comments, this was before the invitation for private contact with kids and the whole NSPCC debacle, for which my negative views about MB's behaviour and statements should not need to be reiterated.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not a fan of tribalism and just because my views are diametrically opposed to MB's on most things does not mean I discount their views on this. You are entirely free to come to your own conclusions, and I won't be demanding conformity to my views. But speaking personally, I understand the concept of systemic privilege, because that's what the word patriarchy means, so it is not difficult to understand systemic privilege that is predicated on skin colour, and I will not pull cat's bum faces at a person of colour talking about that systemic privilege in ways that my pasty white self might feel are too rude.

SarahTancredi · 02/06/2020 14:30

As far as I am aware I thought that loreal had been informed of other comments thet had made as well.

As has happened with every appointment they seemed to have been given.

Given this has happened with even the ultra woke such as the labour party and the nspcc both of which were well aware of what they have publically said before they were even hired it does insinuate that there must be a hell of alot more too it.

That does of course not negate any point they had a about racism.

It is a very common theme with MB

SarahTancredi · 02/06/2020 14:32

And yes joe they have every right to be angry. I would not say otherwise.

Lordfrontpaw · 02/06/2020 14:43

Did they attack any other company or individual for doing this? Yes, they have a beef with L'Oreal but they did put their foot in their mouth and that's what got them into trouble.

Calling all white people racist when your mum is white is a tad... insensitive (obviously I don't know the family dynamics there)?

L'oreal did speak out - now and when they fired them because they have made some pretty terrible public statements.

TyroSaysMeow · 02/06/2020 14:53

L'Oreal selling skin lightening products to black women.

Hadn't realised they did this. That's grim. I know that's capitalism for you, and they probably say they're just filling a gap in the market, but do they really not give a single shit about the doubly oppressive standard they're facilitating? What happened to ethics?

Lordfrontpaw · 02/06/2020 14:54

I would assume also hair straightening products? I choose not to buy from them anyway.

Goosefoot · 02/06/2020 14:56

Which suggests to me that MB views race and gender in the same way, ie as an innate, inborn quality/feature/psychological aspect rather than an externally-imposed mechanism of control.

Yes, I would say that is true, and it's become widely accepted with regard to both race and gender in the US and other places as well.

Comments by the likes of MB aren't really a significant worry in themselves, but the whole mindset is a serious problem because it undermines the basis of anti-racism. It only leaves solutions that are about the creation and enactment of new exploitative power structures, or for those inclined to radicalisation, the destruction of offending classes.

TyroSaysMeow · 02/06/2020 15:28

Yes, I would say that is true, and it's become widely accepted with regard to both race and gender in the US and other places as well.

I'm pondering the whys of how this has come about, and I suspect it's yet another example of America's assumption that its own cultural narratives are globally applicable.

I'm reluctant to waffle on though, because it's not my area of expertise. Open to suggestions for further reading on the subject of the social construction of race as a mechanism of oppression though (and maybe MB could read 'em too, and stop implying that white skin confers any biological advantage beyond the ability to make vitamin D in the frigid northern wastes of my homeland.)

SimonJT · 02/06/2020 15:36

Munroe could not be more right on this issue, sadly as a person of colour being expected by some white people to constantly educate them on racism is exhausting and insulting.

WhatKatyDidNot · 02/06/2020 15:36

Here are some words for Munroe:

Kills me to see the crowd shilling for porn and prostitution pretending to give a shit about black lives.

With the black community having been forced into that "work" via centuries of enslavement, segregation, fill in the fucking blanks

With how over-sexualized black women are, how little black girls are seen as ADULTS, how this normalizes and excuses violence against us, how the sex trade is a direct contributor to and result of this shit

And how black feminism has long opposed prostitution for this exact reason. Peep what bell hooks had to say about prostitution and racial oppression in Ain’t I A Woman ...

twitter.com/RadfemBlack/status/1267712509550755845

As they say, a stopped clock is right once a day. Doesn't make it a tick tock of reason or reliability.

DryHeave · 02/06/2020 15:39

MB is correct to point out the hypocrisy.

WhatKatyDidNot · 02/06/2020 15:46

Also for Munroe:

marginallyproductive.com/2020/06/01/woke-capital-is-not-your-friend/

You cannot simultaneously build a modelling career on Woke PR and then complain when it bites you on the arse. It's PR, Munroe. They didn't believe it then and they don't believe it now. They don't believee in anything other than maximising shareholder returns. But hey ho, you've built a career out of it so a bit rich to moan now.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 02/06/2020 16:05

I can see why MB is pissed off about the race comments.

The hypocrisy when talking about womanhood is obvious, however.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/06/2020 16:17

I'm pondering the whys of how this has come about, and I suspect it's yet another example of America's assumption that its own cultural narratives are globally applicable.

I think it's part of something called Critical Race Theory. I haven't researched it much, but I found it similar to Queer Theory in terms of being very convoluted and confusing. Confused

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 02/06/2020 17:28

The Beauty Industry (how's that for newspeak) thrives on undermining women's self esteem, on exacerbating anxiety, on creating bullshit impossible models of 'femininity' that require vast amounts of money, time and effort on maintaining.

L'oreal as a corporate entity is performing bang to the script. It must be hard to buy into that concept wholeheartedly, to the extent you make your name and living out of it, and believing in some way it's there to help you, to then realise that it has actually engaged in actively trying to undermine you - but that is literally the business model.

DidoLamenting · 02/06/2020 17:34

This reply has been deleted

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Goosefoot · 02/06/2020 18:10

I'm pondering the whys of how this has come about, and I suspect it's yet another example of America's assumption that its own cultural narratives are globally applicable.

I'm not hugely up on this bit of intellectual history either, but some marxist writers I have read who study race in America have said that this has gone back and forth somewhat, between a view of race as an effect or expression or mechanism of class, and then this sort of racial essentialism. So racial essentialism was challenged after WWII, but had something of a resurgence in the McCarthy era before dying down again in the early civil rights era, but then kicked up again at the end of the 70s and into the neoliberal era where it's become the dominant view.

They see that as being a way to avoid challenging class in a more fundamental way, and also as supporting an activist/managerial class that has grown up in many marginalised communities. Because if you understand the material function of race as creating a class of workers for shit jobs, or who will be the unemployed, and that function of class in turn continues to create race as a category, you could begin to act on that effectively by challenging class, or the underclasses could band together to create change.

If race is a wholly separate thing with an existence of its own, OTOH, that protects the capitalist status quo.

Lordfrontpaw · 02/06/2020 18:13

Why was DidoLamenting deleted (if it was the post I think it was)?

RoyalCorgi · 02/06/2020 18:27

As they say, a stopped clock is right once a day.

Twice a day. (Sorry.)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/06/2020 18:36

24 hr digital clock, possibly?

WhatKatyDidNot · 02/06/2020 18:49

I was typing quickly! What can I say?! At least I'm not doing performative outrage. Give me that, at least!

MrGHardy · 02/06/2020 19:03

If you are a narcissist, you just can't help yourself.

TyroSaysMeow · 02/06/2020 19:34

I think it's part of something called Critical Race Theory. I haven't researched it much, but I found it similar to Queer Theory in terms of being very convoluted and confusing.

I've just chucked that into google for a perusal after I've put the small to bed. I find Queer Theory a doddle to follow generally so hopefully I'll be able to make sense of it. Thanks for the heads-up on searchable terms!

WhatKatyDidNot I can't see anything you need to apologise for, so I'm assuming you're referring to the content of the recently deleted post?

If race is a wholly separate thing with an existence of its own, OTOH, that protects the capitalist status quo.

Yeah, I can see that. Can you recall the names of the Marxist writers you mention? Would be interested to go exploring.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/06/2020 19:43

I find Queer Theory a doddle to follow generally

I'm impressed! I find the writing styles and structure of such pieces hard to follow and pretentious. But that's probably my personal projection!

TyroSaysMeow · 02/06/2020 20:04

Agreed on the pretentious angle, Nonny!

We touched on Judith Butler at university and I've been sort of mentally translating ever since. Figured at the time that there must be some sense in there if I looked hard enough; later came to the conclusion that the reason it doesn't make sense is that it fails to adequately account for the realities of sex-based oppression.

It doesn't make sense when you can see the gaping hole that its proponents are missing, ie proper feminist critical analysis of power structures.

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