Hungary votes to end legal recognition of transgender people

[Lamahaha]

nationalfile.com/hungary-votes-134-56-to-end-legal-recognition-of-trans-people/?fbclid=IwAR2XMJp7yzVMt9sh4QDOX69znivEA43eJhcSDVlm-zsMaikbANtXxnhd_uo

The amendment would recognize “sex at birth,” making it impossible to change ones gender throughout the course of their life.

On the proposed draft law, Human Rights Watch wrote:

The proposed amendment to the Registry Act would include a clarification regarding the word “nem,” which in Hungarian can mean both “sex” and “gender,” to specifically refer to the sex at birth (“szuletesi nem”) as “biological sex based on primary sex characteristics and chromosomes.” According to the draft bill, the birth sex, once recorded, cannot be amended.

It's the correct vote, but this government is otherwise authoritarian, neo-fascist, against minorities, pretty awful.


Apparently the TRA's are already planning a legal challenge in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis that the new law violates European human rights case law...

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

Isn't it interesting how many people are coming in to argue with a "yay Hungary!" stance that nobody here has actually taken? Nobody here thinks the Hungarian government is anything other than a fascist shitshow.

[FloralBunting]

The feminists on FWR have been warning, for literally years, that the push for nonsensical privileges for anyone under the trans umbrella, would lead to the mother of all backlashes by the actual right wing.

TRAs are either too stupid to have worked that out, or too misogynistic to listen because the warnings came from women.

I support any legal moves to ensure legal documentation is factual and not based on whims and fantasy. Feminists have been talking about the bad things associated with the gender system since forever.

TRAs and queer theorists were so eager to play with fire and push away every single boundary line possible that they didn't realise a huge proportion of humanity will push back hard.

So, you know, people can come on here and blame feminists for the resurgence of hard line conservatism, but that resurgence is a response to the fucked up bullshit we have been trying to hold back, so honestly, you can all own your shit, it's nothing to do with us.

[Datun]

The feminists on FWR have been warning, for literally years, that the push for nonsensical privileges for anyone under the trans umbrella, would lead to the mother of all backlashes by the actual right wing.

Absolutely true. Ever since I've been posting on here, the women have been saying it. Warning about it. Starting with Stonewall.

In the beginning there was a spate of transwomen pleading with TRAs to stop, because they could already feel the backlash coming.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

For years they've been saying that women who don't think penises are female reproductive organs are very very scary. Well, you know who's actually scary? Fascists, so if TRAs could stop assisting them with their recruiting efforts that would be lovely.

[thenamesarealltaken]

Sex at birth is important in terms of medicine - the delivery of the required hormone to transitioning males, for example, is not as effective as the continuous adaptive delivery mechanism, that naturally adjusts over time according to the functioning of the rest of the body's internals. Also medical practitioners still don't know the affects of taking hormones long term. So when treating fully transitioned people, they need to understand this, especially if fully transitioned, so not obvious, or partially transitioned but the treatment doesn't involve looking at the obvious parts to check.

As for Trans people who are not altering their body or taking hormones, their sex at birth would quite rightly not be altered, no matter how many alter egos they create for themselves, they will be biologically and genetically their birth sex and require medical treatment compatible with their birth sex.

In addition, many trans people don't actually deny their birth sex - many transitioning people choose to swap or pause treatment, eg to freeze eggs, to have babies, etc., so they are fully aware of their sex at birth.

So I do not agree with hiding 'sex at birth'.

[mummmy2017]

Just seen that my horse comment has upset the person on twitter.
Or was it that DNA will always out the truth.

[CatandtheFiddle]

I agree, and I don't think anyone here has said otherwise, have they?

No @OldCrone - I just think a couple of people mixed me up with various GFs on the thread. I wanted to try to make my views clear ...

[SarahTancredi]

in terms of medicine - the delivery of the required hormone to transitioning males, for example, is not as effective as the continuous adaptive delivery mechanism, that naturally adjusts over time according to the functioning of the rest of the body's internals

Men and women taking their "own" hormones still suffer from side effects. The pill is taken by millions of women and there are plenty with whom it does not agree so of course it would need monitoring and the biological reality to be known.

Drs are not there to judge you or punish you and saint or sinner everyone is entitled to the same standards of emergency care.

I remember the case where so many expressed outrage at the broken arm story. Assuming that there was no difference in treatment for a broken arm, but of course hormone levels and medications or anything what affects bone density or puts strain on the liver or kidneys, well that's all stuff that has to be monitored and /or used to make a decision re the best course of treatment.

This stuff really needs to stop being take as some kind of deliberate personal invalidation attempt.

[CatandtheFiddle]

Well, you know who's actually scary? Fascists, so if TRAs could stop assisting them with their recruiting efforts that would be lovely

Yay, Kitten!! Spot on

[bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg]

I see I made the screencap thread. Do I get a certificate or something?

Male-born people really don't like it when I spell out the biological reasons why female-born people have every reason to fear them.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Isn't it interesting how many people are coming in to argue with a "yay Hungary!" stance that nobody here has actually taken? Nobody here thinks the Hungarian government is anything other than a fascist shitshow.

They don't let that get in the way when there are strawpersons to be constructed!

[bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg]

The Hungarian law change has to be seen in the context of Hungary, where they reissue birth certificates instead of using deed polls to change names.

Hungary is in the EU so they must have equivalent legislation to our Human Rights Act. Does Hungary have anything that approximates to our Equality Act? The contents of that law also affects the context of this law change.

Over here, you could repeal the GRA tomorrow and trans people would still have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment to shield them from harassment and unlawful discrimination in work, education, housing, and public service use. Is this the case in Hungary? I don't read hungarian, I cannot easily find out.

Over here, you could repeal the GRA tomorrow and trans people could still get a passport in a new name with the opposite sex marker on it by sending a doctor's letter and a deed poll. That's certainly not the case in Hungary because they don't have deed polls.

The Hungarian driving licence has no sex marker on it like most other EU licences but of course it will have the same name as the birth certificate and there's no deed poll route to change that freely. Getting a Hungarian driving licence is also quite the ordeal, with medical exams involved and minimum learner hours with an instructor. There doesn't appear to be a provisional licence like ours that could be applied for with just could to get ID with no intention of ever actually driving. The driver's licence is not an easy route to sex-marker-free ID. The national identity card does have a sex marker on and also has the birth name on the back even if it differs from the current name. I don't know whether that applies only to married women or to all who change their names, but if it always has the name at birth on then it will be really outing.

I believe that the birth certificate is a historic record and should not be falsified, and that under very limited circumstances, employers and service providers (e.g. women's refuges) should be able to request the birth certificate (and any deed polls and marriage certs linking that birth cert to current ID) as proof of sex. Hungary already violates that principle by reissuing birth certs instead of using deed polls.

I also believe that trans people should be able to buy beer and apply for most jobs and do most day-to-day things without their name history or birth sex being outed by their ID. Hungarian law now violates that principle as well.

They've gone from bad law to bad law here. I'm not celebrating.

[bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg]

could be applied for with just could to get ID

Urgh, I meant "could be applied for just to get ID"

[mummmy2017]

It's still a case of the Emporers New Clothes.
A simple DNA test will always show the truth.
You can not out run mother nature.

[popehilarious]

Cracking up that the twitter person has tut-tutted at a post that was trying to make the same point they are making

It's almost as if taking a few sentences out of context of the whole discussion might render any point-making meaningless!

[FlyingOink]

Not reached the end of the thread but I can confirm this is what happens 99.99% of the time (if I am challenged or noticed at all).
The rest of the time it is obvious homophobia, but generally women are less aggressive in their homophobia than men are.
For example the number of times homophobic women have said or implied that I'm a sexual predator for using public toilets whilst looking butch is zero, but the number of times men have wanted to fight me for "looking like a man" is several.
I know that's not the most scientific survey but lumping butch women in with AGP men is pretty insulting. I can be as butch as you like, I'm still not a threat (statistically, and in my case actually) to other women.

[Aesopfable]

Flyingoink that ‘how do you police it?’ question just shows who they are - that they want to force themselves into women’s spaces, breaking the law if necessary to do so, with no regard for women. Butch lesbians are not at risk of ‘splash back’ because feminists have required the law on single sex spaces to be followed; they are at risk of ‘splash back’ because men are ignoring the law.

[bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg]

FlyingOink Same here. I'm quite tall and in certain clothes worn for certain male-dominated activities, I get challenged, especially from behind where my face can't give the game away. I would rather be challenged every time I use a loo or changing room for the rest of my life sooner than see one "female of any age" harmed because a male old enough to commit harm went unchallenged in a female-only space.

[FlyingOink]

The feminists on FWR have been warning, for literally years, that the push for nonsensical privileges for anyone under the trans umbrella, would lead to the mother of all backlashes by the actual right wing.

TRAs are either too stupid to have worked that out, or too misogynistic to listen because the warnings came from women.

...
So, you know, people can come on here and blame feminists for the resurgence of hard line conservatism, but that resurgence is a response to the fucked up bullshit we have been trying to hold back, so honestly, you can all own your shit, it's nothing to do with us.

Absolutely spot on.

[FlyingOink]

The alternative to that is to assume right wing reactionary traditionalists have suddenly seen the light and all become radical feminists, which is just a ludicrous and insulting suggestion.

[FlyingOink]

Aesopfable yes and in terms of policing segregation (going back to places where ID is not required so changing facilities and toilets again) then even if homophobic women call management or security on me every time I go to the loo, I haven't done anything wrong (and have not deserved the homophobic harassment). But that honestly is so rare anyway - the few stories of butch women being thrown out of women's toilets are disturbing but they need to be seen as homophobia and not as evidence that short hair equals man and long hair equals woman.
The autostraddle link made me laugh - that's the publication that offered articles on how lesbians can learn to work a cock. The author isn't much of a writer, either. However if she has weighed up the risks and decides to use the gents, that on her and it's for men to decide whether they accept her there.
Frankly I'd rather not use men's toilets ever as they stink and men are (as a group, I know not Nigel and NAMALT) filthy.

[FlyingOink]

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg
I wish I was tall

But yes, I agree and I'd rather be challenged (not abused, attacked or yelled at particularly) every single time.
It's no skin off my nose really, and I am aware of the fact some women will not look closely and will get a jolt of fear and assume I'm a man. It's up to me really to ensure I don't scare anyone.
The vast vast vast majority of the time even when someone says something it is super quick to clarify that yes I am in the right place. As I said, very rarely that won't be enough and the person wants me out because I'm a lesbian, rather than because they thought I was a man.
Interestingly men conflate the sexual orientation aspect with potential sexual assault and paint lesbians as potential rapists far more often. I think it is a function of men being unable to appreciate that how a lesbian relates to, interacts with and is attracted to women is different to how it is for men. They assume it's the same and therefore assume there is a minority (perhaps the aforementioned 6%) of lesbians who are therefore rapists.
But lesbians are women first and foremost, and I have more in common with any other woman than I do with a man even though we might both find a particular woman attractive.

[bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg]

IThey assume it's the same and therefore assume there is a minority (perhaps the aforementioned 6%) of lesbians who are therefore rapists.

Even if 6% of lesbians, or even 6% of all women, were sexual assailants towards women, not one of them can leave their victim pregnant so single-sex spaces would remain objectively safer for women and girls than mixed ones.

And of course, we know from the sexual assault perpetuation stats that I really can't be bothered to hunt out yet again that 98% of sexual offence convictions are of male offenders.

[FlyingOink]

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg
It's just incredibly rare. I think the possibility of pregnancy is a side argument, and I don't want to have to lump the availability of abortion in as a sop to men who want to take over women's spaces.
The 98% statistic is interesting because of the 2% of women who are convicted of sexual assaults (or whatever the exact figure is) there is a significant percentage who are convicted because they have acted in conjunction with a man, basically aiding and abetting rape or abuse or sex trafficking etc.
The number of women of any sexual orientation who sexually attack other women off their own bat is vanishingly small.

[bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg]

I don't want to have to lump the availability of abortion in as a sop to men who want to take over women's spaces.

Abortion isn't a fix for rape. It doesn't negate the harm of being made pregnant in the first place, it just shortens the duration of that harm. When a man rapes a woman and leaves her pregnant, he puts her in a position of having to make a time-critical decision about a controversial medical procedure that may be against her religious beliefs, and then having to access that procedure, potentially under adverse circumstances (like she might not have the freedom to leave her house if her family are controlling her movements). Legal abortion access or none, making a woman or girl pregnant against her will is an appalling thing to do. Removing single-sex spaces without replacing them with single-occupancy spaces increases the opportunity for a man to put a woman or girl in that position and is hence unconscionable.

There will always be men people who try to argue "women are just as bad". We know they are wrong, but even if we pretend that they are not, single-sex and single-occupant spaces are still needed because of the risk of forced pregnancy and regardless of abortion access.