Hungary votes to end legal recognition of transgender people

[Lamahaha]

nationalfile.com/hungary-votes-134-56-to-end-legal-recognition-of-trans-people/?fbclid=IwAR2XMJp7yzVMt9sh4QDOX69znivEA43eJhcSDVlm-zsMaikbANtXxnhd_uo

The amendment would recognize “sex at birth,” making it impossible to change ones gender throughout the course of their life.

On the proposed draft law, Human Rights Watch wrote:

The proposed amendment to the Registry Act would include a clarification regarding the word “nem,” which in Hungarian can mean both “sex” and “gender,” to specifically refer to the sex at birth (“szuletesi nem”) as “biological sex based on primary sex characteristics and chromosomes.” According to the draft bill, the birth sex, once recorded, cannot be amended.

It's the correct vote, but this government is otherwise authoritarian, neo-fascist, against minorities, pretty awful.


Apparently the TRA's are already planning a legal challenge in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis that the new law violates European human rights case law...

[Shedbuilder]

Surely if you make 'passing' the criterion then you discriminate against those whose height or facial bone structure or huge hands mean they will never really pass? Let alone all the subliminal indicators like gait? Is that really a good basis for discrimination? What about those who pass at the age of 22 but not at 52? Who will decide who passes and who doesn't?

I think probably a separate certificate to add to the birth certificate is the answer. But only for those who, after a two-year (say) period of properly funded, intensive medical and psychiatric investigation are diagnosed as suffering from gender dysphoria. I'd want to see the psychiatrists and therapists involved in that retrained, too, to be really rigorous and to have safeguarding always at the forefront of their decisions.

[HorseRadishFemish]

I know I'd feel unsafe if I was in a refuge and a transgender with a beard and no breasts were to be housed like me...

What is a "transgender"?

Do you realise how nasty that sounds?

[mummmy2017]

So let's put DNA gender on the forms.
That can't be changed.
And let's put no penis's on changing rooms.

[nauticant]

You didn't address the point of splashback on butch lesbians though. What about adult human females who have a non-normative way of expressing themselves?

I would hope that butch lesbians wouldn't have this terribly fragile sense of being that trans activists are keen on claiming. If a butch lesbian appears to be a man or causes uncertainty, perhaps we could have a climate where an uncertain woman could feel empowered to ask whether they should be in a women's single sex space and the butch lesbian could say "no worries, I am a woman", then the two women could smile at each other without there being any kind of performance of literal injury having been caused.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

I'm not seeing why a mastectomy would disqualify a female person from being in a women's shelter. And not convinced that's a good faith argument.

[Kit19]

Strange how butch lesbians aren't all over social media howling that women are being mean to them. The only time I’ve ever seen a butch lesbian reference this happening has been in a “but it was no biggie & I didn’t get upset” kind of way whereas TRA would like us to believe all the women in the toilets stood around in a circle hurling abuse until they left

Also as always toilets are a straw man - it’s refuges, prisons, sports, women’s support groups, language that are the real problem & yet strangely its only ever toilets that gets used in arguments

[NonnyMouse1337]

I agree that all forms of documentation need a rethink.

What purpose does altering the sex marker on a birth certificate serve? Humans cannot change sex. Your sex is determined when you were conceived and it is merely recorded when you are born.

What is the purpose of changing a factual piece of information to something that is not true?

As far as I'm aware, in the UK, a person can change their name to anything they wish. As long as it's not something explicitly offensive, you simply change your name via deed poll. In Scotland, I don't think you even need a deed poll.
If your name is Bob and you don't like your name, and prefer to be Sheila - go ahead and change it. There are no laws that say only males should have these names and females have these names. It's merely social convention and stereotypes around sex.
What's wrong or shameful about a man named Sheila? It might be unusual or rare, but nobody is prevented from changing their name.

Human hair in both sexes grows long naturally. All men would have long hair if they didn't cut it. It's the most natural thing in the world. You're a male who doesn't like your hair short and prefers it longer? Go ahead and let it grow. There's no law that says men's hair should be a specific length.
Lots of men also shave or wax their body hair. Again, nothing to stop you from doing the same.

There's no law to prevent men from using makeup or wearing clothes usually worn by women.

You don't need to be 'trans' or claim to be the opposite sex to do any of the above. They are all tied to social conventions and stereotypes associated with the sexes. You won't be struck by lightning if you break conventions and stereotypes. Trust me.

Some narrow minded individuals might laugh - tell them to fuck off. If there's harassment, threats of violence or direct discrimination in employment etc, then we have laws to protect against that.
No male should face discrimination for not looking or behaving like other males. Similarly for females.

As a society we don't have to indulge in the nonsensical fantasy that humans can change sex in order to enable people to style their hair and face as they like or wear what they choose or use a name they prefer.

So what exactly is gained by modifying the factual marker of sex on documentation?

[forsucksfake]

A lot of bad faith goading with deliberately provocative language going on here.

[ATiredWoman]

@nauticant
It's definately a woman's safety concern.

www.takepart.com/article/2016/05/02/woman-shows-bathroom-safety-isnt-only-trans-concern

www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

Indeed, the idea that documentation must be changed is based on the assumption that not conforming to sex stereotypes is so bad that nonconformity must be hidden once it's gone past a certain undefined point. Alternatively, we could just decide that men can wear dresses if they'd like.

[SarahTancredi]

Women get "misgendered" all the time usually we just laugh about it dont we .

I've done it by accident I work somewhere where it's mainly men as customers so its automatic to go "thank you sir" especially if its busy and you arent always registering immediately , no one has ever been angry with me. Nor have I been with anyone when I've been mistaken for a bloke.

Many men who have long hair have told of how someone thought they were a woman until they turned round and laughted about it after

It's purely male anger of not being able to control the situation that causes it.

[Kit19]

Indeed @forsucksfake

Almost as if the monitors are desperate for screenshots that show MN agrees (It clearly doesn’t) with Hungarian fascist government

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

People have "misgendered" my DH because he often has long pretty hair. He thinks it's funny.

[SarahTancredi]

Precisely it's no big deal. I dont think there are any transmen desperate to go into male refuges etc ultimately they know they would be at risk. And women however they present are welcome in womens spaces.

[nauticant]

Yes forsucksfake. Having done my bit for the lurkers, I'm now out.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

If anyone thinks that women on FWR are scared of butches they must be new here.

People get so sulky when their attempt at an incriminating redirect is met with .

[mcduffy]

I was at a couple of the posts here. Just not in the usual FWR style at all look out for screenshots on twitter!

[Mermoose]

ATiredWoman

A TW must use male rape services. A TM who gets raped must use women's rape services. I know I'd feel unsafe if I was in a refuge and a transgender with a beard and no breasts were to be housed like me.

• I don't think that trans people should be put in with non-trans people of their own sex; I think trans people should probably be in refuges with other trans people. Having said that, while you say you would feel unsafe around a TM, many women feel unsafe around TW. I'd hope that detransitioned women in particular would be welcome in female refuges, they do not carry the statistical risk of violence that male people do and any I've seen give speeches or do YouTube interviews are very obviously female. In prisons TM are almost never put in male prisons, as it's recognised they would not be safe in them, so it's at least questionable if they would be safe in male refuges.
  

I mean it's great that you support the third spaces bits but like how does that realise itself? Are they the disabled spaces? They aren't always available, and third spaces aren't always in provision, I.e healthcare or changing rooms, or refuges. So what then? I like the idea of extra investment in vital services, but what are the practical implications?

• I think this is a good question, but services provided by self-declared 'gender' rather than sex - ie, the removal of the right to single sex facilities - is not the answer.
  

You didn't address the point of splashback on butch lesbians though. What about adult human females who have a non-normative way of expressing themselves?

• Funnily enough transgenderism if anything reinforces the idea that 'non-normative' women are really men. As nauticant said, I'd hope that any mistake would be dealt with in a friendly way, but the thing is that you're hopping between places where formal identification would be used - rape services - in which case a butch lesbian would not be affected by her appearance - and places where it's not - toilets - where women are much less likely to challenge someone unless they really are very obviously male. And butch lesbians, while they might be mistaken for male or someone might be unsure whether they are male or female, don't usually look so male that someone would be sure enough to say so.
  

People are talking about making it impossible to change sex markers, so by definition it's about making transgender always have something to identify that they are TW or TM? There shouldn't be a way they can ever be unidentifiable.

• I think we need to look at the reasons why we have our sex recorded. Where it's ok to falsify it, it surely must be ok (and preferable) to do without it completely. I also think it's strange and regrettable that the trans movement focuses on making everyone say they believe that male people are female and vice versa. It's the only movement I can think of where, instead of encouraging acceptance of a group of people, it tries to get everyone to say they are something they are not. But I think the reason for that reflects the nature of gender dysphoria - it seems like it's an inability for a person to accept themselves as they are. So, sadly, some trans people don't want others to accept them as they are, they want others to pretend they're something else. Why would it be a bad thing for trans people to have an id that says they are trans (to be produced only in situations where sex is relevant)? Shouldn't we be saying it's ok to be trans?

[Xpectations]

There have always been practical issues regarding the inclusion of minority groups. I remember outcries from businesses re the ‘reasonable adjustment’ requirement for employees with disabilities. They still had to make them.

[FOJN]

A lot of bad faith goading with deliberately provocative language going on here.

It's embarrassingly obvious.

[OldCrone]

No one should find this stuff out the hard way. Drs and the like involved in the transitioning patients care should be telling their patients of the limitations.

Any doctor who tells their patient that transition will make them 'become' the opposite sex is failing that patient. Transition is a practical solution to a psychological problem which appears to work for some people, but it doesn't make anyone actually change sex.

Anyone who medically transitions should be fully aware that they will not have changed sex, and that they will instead become someone who may superficially appear like the opposite sex, or perhaps just appear more androgynous. They should also be aware of how difficult that might make their life in a society which has been designed for people who belong to one of two distinct sexes and that in some circumstances the only thing that matters is which of those two sexes they are (medical treatment for example).

[Deliriumoftheendless]

I don’t like using the term splash back in relation to toilets.

[SarahTancredi]

Yes crone its the height cruelty to that to someone. It puts them in danger, in so many ways. What happened to "do no harm"

[DidoLamenting]

HorseRadishFemish

I know I'd feel unsafe if I was in a refuge and a transgender with a beard and no breasts were to be housed like me...

What is a "transgender"?

Do you realise how nasty that sounds?

I agree Horseradish. The poster you are referring to had a longer post written in the same way and it struck me exactly the same way- very nasty.

[Whatsnewpussyhat]

Anyone who medically transitions should be fully aware that they will not have changed sex

I thought this always was the case.
Hence the demand for self ID to bypass any gatekeeping which kept out the fetishists