Hungary votes to end legal recognition of transgender people

[Lamahaha]

nationalfile.com/hungary-votes-134-56-to-end-legal-recognition-of-trans-people/?fbclid=IwAR2XMJp7yzVMt9sh4QDOX69znivEA43eJhcSDVlm-zsMaikbANtXxnhd_uo

The amendment would recognize “sex at birth,” making it impossible to change ones gender throughout the course of their life.

On the proposed draft law, Human Rights Watch wrote:

The proposed amendment to the Registry Act would include a clarification regarding the word “nem,” which in Hungarian can mean both “sex” and “gender,” to specifically refer to the sex at birth (“szuletesi nem”) as “biological sex based on primary sex characteristics and chromosomes.” According to the draft bill, the birth sex, once recorded, cannot be amended.

It's the correct vote, but this government is otherwise authoritarian, neo-fascist, against minorities, pretty awful.

Apparently the TRA's are already planning a legal challenge in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis that the new law violates European human rights case law...

I bridled when I read that!

Oh dear, this trans issue has saddled us with a right old problem.

While I welcome any government understanding that 'sex at birth' is an important piece of information to record, and to maintain in national records, I think the removal of recognition of those who have transitioned their gender ie the way their social identity is presented is wrong.

I would not want to see the removal of protection of those with a GRA (or in serious transition) removed.

But I do not want self-id, and I'd appreciate a roll back of policies adopted throughout the UK which assume that self-id is now law.

I think the removal of recognition of those who have transitioned their gender ie the way their social identity is presented is wrong.

Can you explain why you think someone's 'gender' is so important, and why it should be recognised in their official documentation?

We have told you , many times.
While you can get surgery to make you look like a female, wear the make up, the clothing, walk and talk like a female, you will never be a female.
The same applies the other way around.
Your DNA will always tell the true tale.

Yes, Antibles, we should rein in this madness.

On the contrary, I think having the thread gallop towards this destination was inevitable the moment the GFs arrived.

(How have we gotten this far without a gelding joke? MN, I'm disappointed in you.)

If I can clarify: of course you can't change sex, but I'd like to think that we could live in a world where people can be as gender no-conforming as they wish. And that this should be supported by legislation to show that the state also looks very harshly at discriminating against people because of the way they present themselves publicly.

The problem with the legislation in Hungary is that it doesn't - I suspect - come from that angle at all, but is trying to squeeze men & women back into very constraining gender stereotypes. And enabling discrimination (and worse, I suspect) against those who do not conform.

It's tricky: I do understand (and know about!) the history of the rationale for the GRA here in the UK. And yes, there's an argument that is very rational about equal marriage now obviating the need for the GRA.

But I think that - just as Stonewall et al. have mixed up sex & gender by taking on the trans cause and seeing it as the same as the LGB cause - conservatives & ultra-conservatives also link all of those things (identities and sexualities) together, in a repressive way.

So the situation in Hungary could very well lead to a repression (and worse) of LGB people as well. Russia is an example of where this gets you.

So I don't think Hungary's actions are unmixed good news at all - I suspect that it's an easy gateway into much more savage repression of LGB people, and women.

I'd like to think that we could live in a world where people can be as gender no-conforming as they wish. And that this should be supported by legislation to show that the state also looks very harshly at discriminating against people because of the way they present themselves publicly.

I totally agree with this, of course. But by suggesting that such gender non-conforming people need 'recognition' that they have 'changed gender' (or 'changed sex') is the opposite of being accepting of them. Accepting people for what they are means accepting that some women might have a masculine presentation and some men a feminine one, or that anyone might look androgynous, and that they shouldn't be persecuted or discriminated against because of that.

Suggesting or pretending that such people have actually 'changed sex' or no longer have one at all ('non binary') indicates that society is not accepting of gender non-conformity, and instead that if you don't fit into your allotted gender 'box', you have to declare that you have moved into another one and for it to be legally recognised that you have done so.

If I can clarify: of course you can't change sex, but I'd like to think that we could live in a world where people can be as gender no-conforming as they wish. And that this should be supported by legislation to show that the state also looks very harshly at discriminating against people because of the way they present themselves publicly

I dont know anyone who's fully gender conforming. Gender nonconformity is a natural state of being. Transgenderism relies solely on on reinforcing stereotypes as it's all they have. How can you present yourself in a certain way otherwise. Peope present themselves in allsorts if ways. Hippy looks, goths, emos, skater, surfer style etc there are thousands if looks peope adopt. Why is gender so special?

I mean obviously a man should be able to wear a dress to work if he wants to and as long as its within the company dress code. But that's not really what the problem is is it. Its about changing legal documents and using facilities that dont belong to you.

I mean isnt it basically what people had the right to do before.

Certainly here gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. They can change legal documents etc

But it wasn't enough. The demands just got more and more unreasonable. Maybe they just thought if this is the way it's going to go then no. Because they are running risks if distorted statistics, medical tragedies, and unsafe spaces and it's all for nothing because they always want more

The goady posting on this thread has served its purpose:

twitter.com/emilymcminn_ms/status/1264925674017619970

Oh. Someone else I've never heard of who's blocked me, by the looks of things!

I hardly ever even post on Twitter

Wasnt one of those on their side?

Did they even read the thread

Did they even read the thread

Didnt need to, those posts were made specifically for screenshot purposes

It's all getting a but desperate isnt it.

They cant even find tweets that say what they think they say.

Orban's party is racist, homophobic, misogynistic and xenophobic. It's unsurprising that they want to lock people into sex stereotypes.

I don't see this as a good move, as even though I believe biological sex is extremely important to recognise, the driving force behind this move is transphobia rather than an attempt to protect sex-based rights. It takes away something that protects people with gender dysphoria, a recognised mental health condition. This is unacceptable.

Didnt need to, those posts were made specifically for screenshot purposes

That's a load of crap though, sorry.
I've never even heard of the person linked to in the tweet, so how were they "made specifically for screenshot purposes?"
More like said person has eyes and can read and then did a screenshot on Twitter (again, nothing to do with me)

I've never even heard of the person linked to in the tweet, so how were they "made specifically for screenshot purposes?"

That makes it more likely that it was for screenshot purposes, doesn't it?

@HavelockVetinari you've said what I was struggling to say!

I don't think I'm in disagreement with anyone posting, just that I worry about where the Hungarian legislation is coming from. I don't think it's coming from a feminist, let's encourage gender non-conformity. It's transphobic in the true sense not the rubbish I was accused of in a work disciplinary and I don't think it helps the feminist or LGB causes.

Who said it was anything to do with you lemonade

I couldn't see the Twitter account linked - but I think I'm on T**fblocker. Which is actually a relief most of the time !

Anyone cheering on the Hungarian government might want to rethink who they regard as allies!

@GoatyGoatyMingeMinge too true! DH is Hungarian, but we won't be registering our DC for a Hungarian passport because the government is dangerous and bonkers.

Anyone cheering on the Hungarian government might want to rethink who they regard as allies!

Who on here is doing that?

I worry about where the Hungarian legislation is coming from. I don't think it's coming from a feminist, let's encourage gender non-conformity. It's transphobic in the true sense

I agree, and I don't think anyone here has said otherwise, have they?