Young women don't know what a woman is

[BlackForestCake]

This is absolutely staggering.

The latest poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland on the subject of self-ID, finds that all demographics in their majority believe a woman is an adult human female.

Except young women.

"The 16-34 female demographic actually voted by a narrow six-point majority that a person’s sex has absolutely nothing to do with biology. Even the next-closest group (young men) was a staggering FORTY points adrift from that view (net -34), and middle-aged women were close behind them at a net -36. Among women over 55 the margin against self-ID was a crushing 62 points (over 4:1 against), with older men at a breathtaking 10:1."

wingsoverscotland.com/abolishing-women/

testing987654321

Then post about children who consider themselves to be trans gender. Don't try and drag children with disabilities into it and hold them up as a kind of "look at how these children manage, you should do the same" example.

Hooves is so clearly on a derail. Tedious. But the more this gets dragged out the more people see the empty arguments and nonsense. I only wish they’d go on the main boards so others can see it too. Sunlight on the ideology, sunlight on the tactics.

What changes does a trans person need to make to their body in order for it to function properly?

The changes that they want to make.

Why do bariatric patients have surgery? They don't need it. Their bodies function perfectly well without it, if they ate properly and exercised and maybe had counselling. People who have cosmetic surgery have functioning bodies, but some aspect is causing psychological harm and so they have surgery.

But according to that quote from Michelle Moore, you shouldn't have had a hip replacement. You should have learnt to accept your body despite the difficulties and it not working as it should.

This is a gross misrepresentation of Professor Michelle Moore

A Woman's Place takes nerves of steel (Sheffield, 20th September 2018) Michele Moore

'Professor Michele Moore is an expert in Inclusive Education and Disability Studies. She leads human rights projects across the world to support children, their families and those who work with them. She is the Co-Editor of the ground-breaking book Transgender Children and Young People, Born in Your Own Body from Cambridge Scholars. Michele will be discussing ideas from the book – the implications of self-declaration of gender for children and young people, including disabled children'

R0wantrees

Maybe you should take it up with the person who misrepresented her then?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

This isn't about you. You are an adult, you deal with you however you want to. Whether surgery can or cannot help you is not relevant to the discussion.

We are talking about children in general terms learning to accept themselves and not being told their bodies are wrong, regardless of whether they have functioning bodies that they don't like, or bodies that don't function as they should.

Whether it matches your experience of childhood disability or not, the fact is many children have problems that can not and never will be fixable. It is a generally accepted belief that it is best for these childrens mental wellbeing to be taught to love their bodies regardless of their faults.

The changes that they want to make.

So if children want puberty blockers because they don't like their changing bodies, they should be given them?

Bariatric surgery ...but I thought that was for people who are so seriously overweight their health is at risk ?

No zebra, you are the one making all the allegories to disability that I can see
You keep bringing it up over and over again
Harping on about your disability and why the fact that you can be helped through medical and surgical intervention somehow means that children with gender dysmorphia should also have medical and surgical intervention

you , not anyone else that I can see, are equating a disability with a natural transient part of growing up as a gender none conformant female in a sexist society

People who have cosmetic surgery have functioning bodies, but some aspect is causing psychological harm and so they have surgery.

Do you think that it might be better to address the psychological issues surrounding their dislike of whatever body part they dislike rather than immediately going for surgery?

Maybe you should take it up with the person who misrepresented her then?

I think that was you.

The idea that someone's nose can cause them psychological harm by not being pretty enough is really quite something.

We are talking about children in general terms learning to accept themselves and not being told their bodies are wrong, regardless of whether they have functioning bodies that they don't like, or bodies that don't function as they should.

And I was a child who was told to accept my body as it was. That's why I have such strong feelings about it. They were wrong to try and make me do that. That was about them and not about me or about what I wanted.

Of course, not everyone wants to deal with it the way I did but not does everyone want to deal with it by acceptance. My point is, every person should be helped to find the right way for them, not forced to accept what other people think is for the best.

Do you think that it might be better to address the psychological issues surrounding their dislike of whatever body part they dislike rather than immediately going for surgery?

I don't know. Has anyone ever studied outcomes - surgery Vs psychological interventions to see which has the best outcome?

And I was a child who was told to accept my body as it was. That's why I have such strong feelings about it. They were wrong to try and make me do that. That was about them and not about me or about what I wanted.

Can you explain in general terms why they didn't want to treat your condition? I realise this is a very personal issue (but you're the one who has been keen to put your own experience in the spotlight), so obviously I'm not asking for specifics, but more generally. For example, did the treatment have a low success rate, or did it mean you would experience a lot of pain afterwards? Or was it just very expensive?

Doctors are normally trying to achieve the best outcomes for their patients so this seems an unusual attitude to take.

Well it's quite easy to assess the impact of "just get on with it" and social support versus the current medicalisation approach, if you could be bothered

Negative outcomes associated with the first approach are so rare that the current transgender industry seems unable to realise that many adult women today actually still are or were in their youth, transgender. ( even if they won't identify as such )

Many have or had all the symptoms and characteristics, but somehow do more than manage. To the extent that they are dismissed as "not really ever been transgender" , whilst

. I mean you would think someone would say " so what happened to the previous generations of transgender children?"

But according to that quote from Michelle Moore, you shouldn't have had a hip replacement. You should have learnt to accept your body despite the difficulties and it not working as it should.

That is not what she said, or even implied, as several of us have said. You are not listening at all. We are going around in circles. This is not about you.

OldCrone

I think it was multifactorial.

Initially, I was under the care of my local hospital who I don't think really knew what they were dealing with and so they recommended watching and waiting (I was about 7 at this time). Over the years things got worse and worse. At age 14 they performed an operation that didn't work. And following that said there was nothing more to be done and again advised that I learn to live with it. My parents took this on board and insisted this was what I had to do.

Eventually at 15 I went to my GP myself and happened to see a new Dr who had trained in a London teaching hospital. He wasn't sure what the problem was but thought that a consultant that he had worked with might be able to help and so referred me. I had a consultation with him and he proposed doing an operation which was much bigger and ordinarily wasn't done on children ( because it disrupts the growth plate in the bone) but thought that it had a chance of improving my quality of life. It was a big deal - 3 months in plaster, months of rehab etc. My parents were against it - it was experimental, risk of it going on, and weirdly my mum was sure that I would never accept the scar so it was a cosmetic aspect too. Again, they held fast to the original drs view that I should learn to live with it. I must admit, I created merry hell, arguing that it was my body and therefore my choice and I was choosing to take the risk. I made it clear that age 16 I would be having it done anyway so eventually they gave in and I had it done two months before my 16th birthday.

It's only in the last ten years that they've actually diagnosed the genetic problem that I have and we now know it's affecting my heart, lungs, gut and most recently brain stem too as well as multiple joints. But that surgery I had at age 15 gave me a good 15 years of relatively normal life, that I wouldn't have had if I'd just "accepted" it. Maybe that's why I have such a visceral response now to people suggesting anyone needs to accept anything. I know that it was absolutely wrong for me.

Children are being taught that they can be 'born in the wrong body'. Do you think this is a good idea?

Hooves?

But male people do need to accept that they can never be female. That's the point here.

Thanks for your detailed reply Hooves.

Maybe that's why I have such a visceral response now to people suggesting anyone needs to accept anything. I know that it was absolutely wrong for me.

But you must realise that every situation is not like yours. Nobody is going to find a way to grow limbs for children born without them. If you had been born a few years earlier or in a different country that treatment might not have been available.

Sometimes there is no treatment. What do you propose for those people? A lifetime of anger and resentment, or acceptance?

And you still haven't answered this question Hooves.

Children are being taught that they can be 'born in the wrong body'. Do you think this is a good idea?

I don't know crone.

I know it's not an answer for everyone. I've acknowledged that. But also "just learn to accept your lot" isn't the right answer for everyone.

That's why I'm against a blanket policy that applies to everyone. I truly believe that these are decisions to be taken between the patient, their Dr, and where applicable the parents. I know you don't agree.

The other problem I have with the "Born I the Wrong Body" narrative is that a child can choose to be chemically and then surgically sterilised and take hormones to radically alter their appearance but they will still never be in the "Right Body". So the whole concept is a myth anyway.

I don't think children should be taught that "they are born in the wrong body" but I think there's a wider meaning behind that phrase - that your body doesn't correlate with your internal dialogue.

So, no, I don't necessarily agree with describing it in that way but I can recognise the wider inference and still maintain that whatever treatment is decided upon should be individualised and between the drs, the patient, and the parents.