Young women don't know what a woman is

[BlackForestCake]

This is absolutely staggering.

The latest poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland on the subject of self-ID, finds that all demographics in their majority believe a woman is an adult human female.

Except young women.

"The 16-34 female demographic actually voted by a narrow six-point majority that a person’s sex has absolutely nothing to do with biology. Even the next-closest group (young men) was a staggering FORTY points adrift from that view (net -34), and middle-aged women were close behind them at a net -36. Among women over 55 the margin against self-ID was a crushing 62 points (over 4:1 against), with older men at a breathtaking 10:1."

wingsoverscotland.com/abolishing-women/

Hooves you talk utter nonsense and you know it. A man does not give up if he decides he’s not a woman. He never was and never could be. It’s not giving up. It’s understanding the truth. The moon does not give up on being the sun. It never could be.

You talk as if physical facts were subject to X Factor style magical thinking where if you believe in something enough it will happen. ‘Sorry that you can’t fly. I’m afraid you just didn’t want it enough’ 😂

I am talking about physical disabilities and being expected to accept it, and learn to just live with it. A fact originally brought up by another poster. Using people with physical disabilities as a way to justify your arguments about trans gender people is offensive.

My comments aren't about trans issues, they are about physical disabilities and a posters argument that people with disabilities should just have to accept them. That is for the individual with the disability to decide,imo, not for others to dictate.

Hooves, I wrote that original statement, I have tried to clarify it for you. I didn't for a second interpret Moore's comments as meaning that children with disabilities should not have medical treatment. You have invented that for yourself to get offended about.
I am not going to try to clarify this again, as you constantly referring to your incorrect interpretation seems to entertain you, and renders trying to communicate with you a waste of time.

issues that might not even effect them personally

Indeed, these issues only affect anyone who is female or male, so loads of us won't even have an experience of that, eh?

testing987654321

The post literally says that children

have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should,

where is there even a hint or a suggestion that any medical or surgical treatment runs even alongside this? It clearly says they have to accept their bodies, even if they're not working as they should. There's no room for doubt there. The statement is very clear.

Where does it say that this runs alongside medical or surgical treatment to alleviate anything? The statement is very clear

I think OldCrone described it well (thanks OC!):

They may be able to have treatments to help them live fuller and more independent lives, but for many, some level of disability will remain.

For many, if not most, disabilities, there is no perfect cure. That boy I spoke of pages back: he has now a grown man with artificial limbs. He knows that artificial limbs will never work as well as real ones. He has to learn to accept that.

Or take me. Two years ago I had a hip replacement to alleviate excruciating pain. The operation was a great success, and I can now walk without crutches, clean my home, live a full life.

BUT: I can't run very fast. I have some pain going up and down stairs. I can't sit in perfect cross-legged position or do other Yoga exercises (something I've done all my life) and I'm not very good at getting down on the floor and up to play with my granddaughter. And I know this is it; it's not going to improve, no matter what I do. There is no perfect cure.

I'm not going to whinge and complain for the rest of my life! I've done the big thing had the surgery, which I was reluctant (and scared) to do and my life has improved dramatically. But it will never be the way it was.

I accept my disability, having done all I can to relieve it.

I also remember, as a young woman, visiting a home for children with polio in my home country. What astonished me the most was the way they laughed and played and were so cheerful and friendly, in spite of the fact that their legs were in calipers. That was actually a pivotal moment for me. I'm sure that those children will have received all the treatment they possibly can but their legs will never be strong enough to carry them. And yet they demonstrated such strength of will and character. I was greatly impressed. I was just 19 at the time, and I've never forgotten that visit.

What I learned that day: we don't have control over everything in our lives. The only thing we can control is our inner life -- the way we respond to what life deals us, to mishaps and disasters. I learned that attitude is everything.

In this context, I would not interpret the words of someone who actually works with disabled children to mean they should not have surgery or other corrective treatment! That would be ridiculous. That's why I said it's a false dichotomy.

It clearly says they have to accept their bodies, even if they're not working as they should. There's no room for doubt there. The statement is very clear.

It doesn't mention whether or not such children have had or will have any treatment to alleviate their condition. You are assuming that that means that all treatment would be denied to them. Most rational people would interpret it to mean that even after all available treatment has been carried out, some people have conditions which cannot be helped further by medical science as it is now, and they need to learn to live with their condition and accept their bodies for the sake of good mental health.

This doesn't mean giving up. It's not either/or. It's not total acceptance of how things are vs constantly shouting at the world about the lack of a cure. It can be just making the best of your life, whilst at every opportunity looking to see if there are any new developments which might help you.

No, for me acceptance is giving up. It means you stay as you are.

Exactly, for YOU. Hopefully for you there will be a cure.

But for many, especially people born with disabilities there is no cure. They have no choice but to accept the body they have. No one is saying they shouldn't get available medical help. They are saying there may not be a medical fix.

Should we tell children with genetic syndromes to never accept themselves, that they should be depressed and angry. Should we tell children with incurable issues to keep hoping and searching for the magic fix.

You have taken a perfectly reasonable comment illustrating why we shouldn't tell children their body is wrong - because telling any child their body is wrong, even one who many have disabilities - and applied it to your own personal situation as an adult, to then take offence.

If you want to live your life without accepting you disabilities, OK, crack on. You're an adult that's your choice. But we're talking about how to help children learn to mentally deal with having bodies that don't meet their expectations. Whether that be because their body doesn't function properly or because they have GID or body dismorphia.

No, for me acceptance is giving up. It means you stay as you are.

So your disability is one that there might possibly be a cure for, one day. What about the boy Lamahaha mentioned, who was born without some of his limbs? There is never going to be a complete cure for that, although the prosthetic ones might improve. Should he spend his entire life shouting at the world that he was born in the wrong body and someone should give him a new one? Or would it be better for him to accept his imperfect body and live the best life he can? Do you think that's 'giving up'?

But don't we all have to accept the things about our bodies which we don't like or feel are inadequate? Even for those of us lucky enough to have been born with healthy bodies there are aspects that we dislike or which prevent us from doing everything we want to do, and as we age, even more so. It's important to accept the things which can't be changed and adapt our lives accordingly.

For a condition for which there is currently no cure, adapting your life to your disability and accepting your current limitations doesn't mean that you have to give up on hoping for or looking for a cure. But not accepting this and consequently spending all your time being angry that there is no cure must be exhausting.

In amongst all the post I missed if Hooves had answered the question they had been conspicuously ignoring last night?

Children are being taught that they can be 'born in the wrong body'. Do you think this is a good idea?

Or has it just been more deflection and tangent and pretty much business as usual from them?

'born in the wrong body'

This, for me, is a horrendous thing to suggest to anyone as a concept. It aligns very well with the values of cosmetic surgeons. Can't see it being beneficial to anybody else.

I'd forgotten about that question Pertella. No, I don't think Hooves has answered any of my questions. I think Hooves is ignoring all my posts.

Lamahaha

But according to that quote from Michelle Moore, you shouldn't have had a hip replacement. You should have learnt to accept your body despite the difficulties and it not working as it should.

It suggests that one might be somehow moved into a different body, FaceOff style, which is absurd to adults as a concept, but makes more sense when you realize that it's children being targeted.

(That was meant as a response to Scrimshaw's post, lots of people typing fast today.)

OldCrone

If that's the interpretation we were meant to have that you learn to accept after any relevant medical or surgical treatment is done, how does that fit in with trans issues, which is what is was cited to justify?

It was quoted as a way of justifying psychological treatment, in order to accept your body as it is, rather than taking drugs or having surgery to try and change it. If what you are saying is correct, that acceptance goes along with doing what's possible to change your body how does that fit with the trans issue?

CaliforniaMountainSnake

I was a child with this disability. I was born with it. Doctors told my mum and dad to accept it. I was told to accept it. They tried to make me accept it. By the time I was 14 I refused. It was affecting my life too much. I had one surgery to try and alleviate an issue that didn't work and the surgeon recommended a far bigger, more radical surgery. I wanted to do it my parents refused. They wanted me to accept my condition. Eventually I got my way. It was really tough but it did help that one part of the problem for many years. Now, I'm struggling far more, in part due to that surgery, and my condition is affecting much more of my body. Still I'm being told to accept it but I don't want to. In my case, had I accepted my situation at age 14 my life would not be what it is now so I don't regret my choice. But that's the point - I was given a choice by drs who advocated for me.

I am getting confused as to why this has veered into a discussion around disability and its treatment, and then linked to the transgender question, since the evidence is that dysmorphia is a mental illness not a form of disability?

So your disability is one that there might possibly be a cure for, one day

No it isn't. My condition is genetic and affects every organ and every system in my body. There's no cure and will never be a cure. But there might be surgeries or treatments that I can have to correct each thing that goes wrong. Or, I could just sit back and accept that this is it, my body is defective and limit myself. That's not for me. The only thing that motivates me is to keep fighting for the next stage.

Some people like to make every thread about themselves. There’s a name for it.

attackedbycritters

Because a poster said that just as children with a physical disability have to accept their body, with all of its limitations, so too should trans gender individuals.

Last go. ‘Transgender’ children do not have any limitations. They have fully functioning sexed bodies - or would do if left alone.

Again Hooves knows all this but is a tiresome derailer.

Exactly, bint, and the idea that transgender children were born "in the wrong body" is ridiculous. We all are our one body, the right one for each of us.

How many children dream of being born a princess or be able to fly, or to be able to speak to their cat or that their toys come alive at night. Or the children that freak out their parents with invisible playmates or stories of past lives?

I remember dreaming when I was about 4 that I drove dads car. It was very vivid and I couldn’t be persuaded that it was a dream - I was armament that I had driven the car. They sat me in the seat - how could you see over the wheel? How could you reach the pedals? Where did you go? How did no one see you?... I stubbornly kept to my story.

Children really do have amazing imaginations.

If what you are saying is correct, that acceptance goes along with doing what's possible to change your body how does that fit with the trans issue?

By definition, some aspect of a disabled person's body doesn't function as it does in someone without that disability. For example, someone who was born without legs might be given prosthetic legs in order that they can walk. It would be inhuman to deny such help to such a person if this help is available and just tell them to 'accept' their body.

What changes does a trans person need to make to their body in order for it to function properly?