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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Young women don't know what a woman is

484 replies

BlackForestCake · 08/05/2020 14:23

This is absolutely staggering.

The latest poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland on the subject of self-ID, finds that all demographics in their majority believe a woman is an adult human female.

Except young women.

"The 16-34 female demographic actually voted by a narrow six-point majority that a person’s sex has absolutely nothing to do with biology. Even the next-closest group (young men) was a staggering FORTY points adrift from that view (net -34), and middle-aged women were close behind them at a net -36. Among women over 55 the margin against self-ID was a crushing 62 points (over 4:1 against), with older men at a breathtaking 10:1."

wingsoverscotland.com/abolishing-women/

OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · 10/05/2020 11:46

I don't think any of these drugged and mutilated children will make it to being elderly tbh.
The odds are stacked against them in terms of all the physical side effects, not to mention the mental health problems.

APocketFullOfButtons · 10/05/2020 11:49

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras gender dysphoria is a mental health condition. Mental health issues are a form of disability

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 10/05/2020 11:51

Hooves, if you don't want people to bring up disabilities at all, why were you highlighting them earlier?

Because I was disagreeing with the poster who originally decided to bring people with disabilities into the argument. I'm allowed to find that offensive and to challenge it.

NonnyMouse1337 · 10/05/2020 11:53

Surgery and medical devices can only help some disabilities, usually imperfectly. There are many issues that can never be corrected. It is appropriate to help people, especially children, come to understand that often there's no 'magic' cure and we have to accept ourselves and the limitations that arise from our bodies and minds. We can learn to live (and thrive) with the one body we have.

Advocates of transgenderism grasp this, but insist on going around in circles and using disabilities as a way to prop up their arguments for why people, especially children, should be allowed to have all sorts of medical and surgical interventions carried out on them.

Would disabled people find it offensive if someone claimed to have an 'amputee' identity and demanded access to all sorts of treatments and services that are usually difficult even for genuinely disabled people to obtain?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 10/05/2020 11:55

APocketFullOfButtons

That isn't necessarily true. A condition, either mental or physical, doesn't necessarily mean a disability, criteria have to be met for it to be classed as such. Part of it is also down to how the individual feels too. You can't just label someone as disabled if they choose not to accept it.

And the original poster was talking about physical disabilities, hence their comments about bodies not working properly, whatever that means!

Datun · 10/05/2020 11:56

@NekoShiro

You've got it the wrong way round. And that might well be because, at face value, it can look like busting gender boxes.

But that's because when you see a transwoman, you're actually seeing a man dressed in a feminine way, and your first instinct is to see gender nonconformity. But only because you know he's a man.

The damaging and ideological part comes right at the very end, when he says dressing in a feminine way, and claiming he thinks and feels like a woman is not because he's a gender nonconforming man it's because he is a woman. Because that's the way women, and only women, think. It's reinforcing the boxes, not dismantling them.

This is why it is regressive and damaging, largely to women. It's not progressive.

We're going backwards.

It's a shame a lot of younger women these days seem to take so much for granted. It's really only a short time ago when women were not given access to higher education for instance, or it was simply not considered necessary, because they would end up getting married and having babies, so what's the point. Rape within marriage was completely legal in the early 1990s. A landlord could quite legitimately refuse to serve a woman, purely on the basis that she was female, up until the early 1980s.

I realise that to some young women, this seems such a long time ago. But many of the men who heartily approved of these laws still work in environments where they are made.

It's bad enough seeing men clamouring to roll back women's rights. But at least it's familiar sexism and misogyny.

But it's incredibly frustrating seeing women doing it, too, out of a sense of ignorance.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 10/05/2020 11:57

"The male race" has always been my favorite disgruntled blokeism.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 10/05/2020 11:59

It is appropriate to help people, especially children, come to understand that often there's no 'magic' cure and we have to accept ourselves and the limitations that arise from our bodies and minds.

It's appropriate if that is what the individual wants. I don't want to accept my body as it is and neither, nor anyone else, is going to make me accept it. I will keep on trying to change it and seek treatments that can help me to change it. I don't have to accept anything because you want me to.

Floisme · 10/05/2020 12:01

young women are open to rejecting historical gender roles.
I actually think this is an important point, although probably not in the way the poster intended. From what I've seen and heard, young people genuinely do believe they're rejecting gender roles. Now I think they're doing the exact opposite and other posters have very eloquently argued why. But the thinking is entrenched and I've no doubt they say the same about our arguments.

I honestly don't know where we go from here.

APocketFullOfButtons · 10/05/2020 12:04

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I can’t think of any mental health issues, that don’t in one way or another, are at least somewhat debilitating. When we are talking about any dysphoria, it is difficult to live your life. Pro-ana as an example of a community that actively encourages abdysphoria you are larger than you are and has a dire effect on the body, I’m sure would not consider it a disability, but a lifestyle however I disagree.

APocketFullOfButtons · 10/05/2020 12:07

@Floisme they are very welcoming to gender roles, so much so, that if you do not follow them, it changes biology. I can’t think of a generation more accepting of gender roles. Typical 1950s housewives would be non-binary by today’s standards, because nobody exclusively adheres to gender/gender stereotypes/sexist stereotypes/whichever term you use.

attackedbycritters · 10/05/2020 12:09

But your way of doing it appears to be equating disability with gender dysmorphia. Either it's the same type of issue, in which case a difference in treatment would be wrong, and ignoring the similarity would be wrong , or it's different, in which case bringing up disabilities would be irrelevant.

Floisme · 10/05/2020 12:10

Yes I know that and I agree. The problem is that they believe the opposite. They are convinced.

Floisme · 10/05/2020 12:11

Sorry cross post - there are several conversations going on here!

Lamahaha · 10/05/2020 12:11

...they’ll be like this 🤦‍♀️ going “what the hell was I thinking?”

It won't take that long. I give it 20 years at the most. We will all look back at the time when the society seemed to be tipping over into insanity, when people pretended they couldn't tell men from women. And these women will be the ones wearing the scars.

maybe in 100 years ...we'll look back at this like slavery

As the descendant of actual slaves, actual men and women who were stuffed into ships and put to work in the New World, of women who were beaten and raped by white slavemasters, I'm, saying right now, stop it. Just stop it. You have no idea.
How dare you even hint that the condition of transpeople is in any way comparable?
You render me speechless.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 10/05/2020 12:16

What we'll actually look back at this and think of is the Thalidomide scandal, imo.

APocketFullOfButtons · 10/05/2020 12:18

Disability is an umbrella term, it doesn’t exclusively refer to people in a wheelchair or without an arm. Physical and mental health disabilities are different, and disability is a spectrum. I didn’t see the original post Hooves replies too, but I think anyone with common sense can see any dysphoria, be it weight, race, gender, limbs is debilitating. And counselling to accept reality is the most appropriate response.

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 10/05/2020 12:18

we'll look back at this like slavery

Nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game.

Michelleoftheresistance · 10/05/2020 12:21

Nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game.

I often think this truly shows the ignorant childishness of it all in every way. Overprivileged, spoiled, wholly self centred, incapable of empathy or consideration for anyone else. It's just throwing around any word perceived as powerful that might make mummy give what's wanted. This is the movement of overgrown toddlers.

Lamahaha · 10/05/2020 12:24

The person conflating those issues was the one who chose to state that children with disabilities are counselled to accept their bodies and the issues they present, rather than given surgery to alter them the inference being that anyone who identifies as trans gender should do the same.

This is a false dichotomy.

Please find for me the bit where she says that it's an either-or problem -- that they have to accept their bodies as disabled and not do anything to relieve the disability. That those without hands and feet should be left as they are, the deaf should stay deaf, heart problems should not be treated.

Because I doubt she said that.

Because is is possible to accept a situation, and still do everything you can to improve on it. This is an attitude advocated in many religions and spiritual traditions.

Lamahaha · 10/05/2020 12:26

What we'll actually look back at this and think of is the Thalidomide scandal, imo.

Or lobotomies.

OldCrone · 10/05/2020 12:27

Because I was disagreeing with the poster who originally decided to bring people with disabilities into the argument. I'm allowed to find that offensive and to challenge it.

You seem to have missed some important points which that poster and others have made. I'll try to explain them clearly again for you so that you can understand why disability was mentioned.

For many disabled people, there is no cure. They may be able to have treatments to help them live fuller and more independent lives, but for many, some level of disability will remain. Do you think it is better to help such people to accept their bodies and the limitations which go with their disability, or do you think that it would be better to tell them that they have been 'born in the wrong body' and they should spend their entire lives railing at the world that they have the wrong body and demanding treatment (which doesn't exist) to fix their disability ?

Children who are confused about 'gender identity', largely because of the crap they are being fed by the media and in school, are being told that they have been 'born in the wrong body' and that they can have treatment to make them change sex. This treatment is not because of a disability, and will not enable them to live fuller and better lives. On the contrary, it is treatment which will make their sexual and reproductive organs non-functional and will make them medical patients for life, which is likely to be shorter than if they were not given this 'treatment'. Wouldn't it be better for these children to be accepting of their fully-functioning, healthy bodies?

I'm finding it hard to understand why you view the mutilation and sterilisation of healthy children as similar to treatment to help a disabled person to live a fuller/more independent/less painful life.

OldCrone · 10/05/2020 12:45

I don't want to accept my body as it is and neither, nor anyone else, is going to make me accept it. I will keep on trying to change it and seek treatments that can help me to change it. I don't have to accept anything because you want me to.

I hadn't seen this post of yours when I wrote my last post hooves, and I see that you have answered my first question. I think I understand a bit better now why you found the post about children with disabilities so offensive.

I wish you well with finding the treatment you want, but I hope you will also try to find some enjoyment in life along the way. I think what Lamahaha said is important here.

Because is is possible to accept a situation, and still do everything you can to improve on it.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 10/05/2020 12:46

Lamahaha

This is the post, in full

Michele Moore said she works with lots of children with disabilities, one key point she makes is that they have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should, as it is the only body they have, so it can't be the wrong one.

Where does it say that this runs alongside medical or surgical treatment to alleviate anything? The statement is very clear

one key point she makes is that they have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 10/05/2020 12:49

Because is is possible to accept a situation, and still do everything you can to improve on it.

No, for me acceptance is giving up. It means you stay as you are. Change comes from not accepting.

Regardless, what Lamahaha says is their opinion and they are absolutely entitled to hold it. However, that isn't what the original post said, which is what I've been objecting to.