Can someone please help me out with pronouns

[Lollygaggles]

So how do I stand in terms of the current legislation, if I refer to a person by the pronouns of their birth, rather than their preferred pronouns?

Would it be compelled speech to be forced to collude with a belief that I do not accept? Also, how does my freedom not to be discriminated against because of my beliefs ( ie that people can't change sex) play out against the protections of Gender Reassignment and the trans person's rights as a legal member of the opposite sex ( though not a biological one.)

Would I be acting in a discriminatory way under the EA by referring to a person as their birth sex, when they have transitioned?

I want to be able to articulate my position very clearly, with reference to the law, but I don't actually know where we are as the law stands on competing rights.

Can anyone help me unpick it please?

Or any of the women who used to work with the lovely individual at Twitter who went to court accused of raping their soon to be ex wife. Said individual was also supposedly a diversity champion and used to go to all kinds of women in tech events.

The tells are always, always there. Instantly and startlingly clear.

Indeed, but I always have that glimmer of hope though!

It's always the questions, isn't it? Well, that and the whole logic thing.

Indeed, but I always have that glimmer of hope though!

I know. And so you should!

Using correct sex pronouns is not illegal as far as I am aware. I guess a person could try the 'harassment' angle or the..quite up in the air hate crime legislation though, given some recent ridiculous court cases that should have been thrown out ages before it even came to court.

Canadians are quite fucked on the pronoun thing though ,and I am sure a while back I read in some states (new york is coming to mind for some reason) using pronouns 'incorrectly' can net you a huge fine.

Of course the pronoun thing is another nonsensical angle. As..how would you automatically know ones pronouns as assuming is wrong and bigoted. But getting it wrong is also wrong and bigoted and hurtful. And asking is going to make the person uncomfortable which is wrong and possibly bigoted. Almost seems like its one of those situations where you (you almost always being a woman too oddly) will always be in the wrong and should expect to be berated for it. And just accept you are a bigoted monster. Really.

Stonewall includes AGP under the transgender umbrella.

If you don't mind me asking, do you generally agree with most of Stonewall's trans ideology? Most GC feminist on here seem not to.

Surely we can withstand trans-extremist ideology and defend sex based rights without being arsey to individual Trans people?

This. It pretty much captures my comments about applying generalised identity politics to individual relationships.

I lean towards GC (recognise potential risks of self-ID) but will probably be considered the 'wrong type of GC' on here as I'm not extreme enough.

I honestly think you'll be regarded as a bit bonkers if you start harping on about this stuff to your colleagues. It's extremely unlikely that your trans workmate's lifestyle is in any way influenced by you or intended to subjugate you, so why make it all about you and instigate all this self involved and combative drama. You'll only be back on here moaning when HR pull you up on it.

(In before, 'women need to be nice, yada yada.')

If you don't mind me asking, do you generally agree with most of Stonewall's trans ideology? Most GC feminist on here seem not to

Either those defending using pronouns incorrect for sex accept the fact this also involves AGP and sexually arousing them by referring to them as women, or they don’t. If you don’t, you accept that Stonewall’s trans umbrella invites a huge number of problems. So which is it? Should the impact of pronouns on a male with AGP be factored in to the pronoun issue, or do Stonewall have it wrong?

There’s no need to harp on to colleagues, just a refusal to quietly acquiesce the entire English language and its use for a very long time just to externally validate someone.

If there is no intention to subjugate, why would anyone need to worry about being pulled up by HR? If HR were to pull me up, I’ve been subjugated to the new invented rules of English, determined by the trans workmate.

So which is it? Am I free to say what I like or am I being subjugated?

If you don't mind me asking, do you generally agree with most of Stonewall's trans ideology? Most GC feminist on here seem not to.

I agree with Stonewall that AGP males exist. They appear to make up the vast majority of males who identify as women.
The statement Stonewall includes AGP under the transgender umbrella. was in response to the person claiming that AGP are a myth, all evidence to the contrary.

I got to about the 10pm comments.

For me it's about lying to children.

Telling children a he is really a she. Telling children that because they're not stereotypical ** they might be 'wrong.'

We can be taught to be polite and tell 'White lies.' But the key in a white lie is that it's us choosing to be nice, thinking of the other's feelings.

All law is based on truth. How many other white lies are enshrined in law?

Doesn't answer your question op, sorry

I think @HedgeWitch79's cover is completely blown! So much for impartial HR bunkum. No, your right to pretend you're something you're not does not outweigh my right to speak the truth and not be forced to lie. Your 'comfort' does not inexplicably outweigh mine.

No such thing as AGP?

I've said it before, and doubtless I'll say it again. We have a friend, known him since the mid 80s. He was our local Marylin. Would leave the building site he was working on, don a short and swishy dress then head for the pub, work boots and all!

He still does now. Married, kids, grandkids. Calls himself a tranny and has, when sober as well as when drunk, explained he gets his kicks from it.

We don't bat an eye lash, call him Steve and just ignore the frock. But you can see his pleasure at the double takes from people who don't know him... and yes, I do mean you can see him get a hard on.

Or have I imagined him for over 30 years? Or is he trannying wrong after more than 30 years? Or is Stonewall wrong and he isn't Trans anything, just has a public kink?

But please, stop denying AGP, it makes you look daft!

Gaaargh! That did have paragraphs...

And as other posters have pointed out the parallels with religion fall at the first hurdle because we're not simply being asked to live and let live. We're being told we must speak and act as though we actually suscribe to that faith-based belief system ourselves. It's particularly strange because if i walked up to a jewish or muslim person and pretended i believed what they believed they would probably be quite taken aback and offended at my clumsy appropriation of their religion and culture. Authenticity is more important than lip service.

Considering the increase in curtains being opened all over the country, perhaps AGP be the next sunlight dappled subject.

I can certainly envisage a defence of not wanting to use incorrect pronouns as it is otherwise sexually arousing to the person concerned.

Yes, so can I. It potentially creates a hostile environment for women.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa.

Limp hasn't really thought this through.

The parallels with religion are interesting. I used to work in a school, I once saw a really interesting job advertised in a catholic secondary school.

There was no requirement to be catholic but it did specify that you had to commit to supporting the school providing a catholic education.

I could not have committed to that, as an atheist I could not support teaching students nonsense or pretend that I agreed with it.

I take my integrity very seriously, I will not pretend to believe things I don't.

.. wait wait i havent got my bingo card ready and i see the racism analogy has already been used...

lol, kit

Why do so many of these TRA chaps seem to be racist? I can't be the only one to notice this..

Soontobe60, if you're using the wrong pronouns for someone - for example, referring to a transwoman as "he" - then you are indeed asserting your belief that they are not a woman (and not even accepting them as a transwoman) every single time you do that.

Yes, you're almost correct. Except I'm not using the wrong pronouns, the transsexual is. They arent a woman, they're a transsexual, which I absolutely DO accept. It's not a belief, it's a fact, and therin lies the issue. Anyone can believe anything they like, it doesn't make it true. What is true, however, is that biological sex cannot be changed.

*There was no requirement to be catholic but it did specify that you had to commit to supporting the school providing a catholic education.

I could not have committed to that, as an atheist I could not support teaching students nonsense or pretend that I agreed with it*

Maybe i’ve been lucky but the catholic schools and priests I’ve come across have always been about debate and education. Even at school we were always able to challenge and question the faith, and ask why. It has never been force fed or felt like we must believe “because we said so”, but gradually reaching it through discussion and learning.

It’s why i sent my own kids to catholic school. The only way to decide if they want to follow a religion is to learn about it and make a decision with the knowledge of what faith is about.

This is what jars for me with trans ethos. It is very much “twaw” and if anyone dares say otherwise, they’re a disbeliever and burn them at the stake.

I’m also a scientist. Until you can prove that tw are women trapped in the wrong body, and that gender isn’t a social construct etc, i will believe that TW believe it, but it isn’t a biological fact.
Same as religion. Noone can prove or disprove the existence of god. I believe that some people believe “he” exists, but i will keep an open mind.

I am sure working in a catholic school would have been fine on a day to day basis. But you don't get a job in one by saying you would challenge their ideas. I could only have got a job there by lying.

*This isn't at all like having a casual conversation with a co-worker who is Jewish and mentioning that you're not. That's obviously fine. This is more like if every single time you refer to your Jewish co-worker by name, you can't just call him Dave, you call him Dave-who-is-Jewish-which-I-think-is-nonsense. See how quickly Dave gets ticked off with you if you do that every single time.

But I would have no problem calling anyone by their preferred NAME. I don't think being a transsexual is nonsense.
Basically, you're saying that my feelings are not important. Because it will upset a transsexual if I happen to use the correct pronoun instead of their preferred pronoun which means I'm hurting their feelings, I'm the wrongdoer. That's some sort of screwed up though process.
"We know that X is male, but X wants everyone to believe that they are female so we must go along with this so as not to upset them"

Firstly, it's not illegal to refuse to use someone's pronouns. There is no such crime in itself. However, if your refusal to use someone's pronouns can be shown to be part of a general pattern of hostile and/or discriminatory behaviour towards this individual because of their trans status, or towards trans people in general, then that is illegal. And to be honest, a deliberate refusal to use someone's pronouns does unavoidably come across as rude, as potentially hostile

I wonder if people referring to 'someone's pronouns' ever stop to reflect on what they say and/or mean.

Is the issue here that there are a raft of people who simply don't understand the function of pronouns in English Language?

Is a contributory factor that some pronouns are called 'personal pronouns' & some folk are confused by this term?

Personal pronouns (e.g., he, they)
Demonstrative pronouns (e.g., this, these)
Interrogative pronouns (e.g., which, who)
Indefinite pronouns (e.g., none, several)
Possessive pronouns (e.g., his, your)
Reciprocal pronouns (e.g., each other, one another)
Relative pronouns (e.g., which, where)
Reflexive pronouns (e.g., itself, himself)

Is there a need for KS2 (?) literacy revision lessons?

It's extremely unlikely that your trans workmate's lifestyle is in any way influenced by you or intended to subjugate you, so why make it all about you and instigate all this self involved and combative drama. You'll only be back on here moaning when HR pull you up on it.

Some HR departments are starting to catch up with the impact of their 'gender' policies which were not scrutinised appropriately.

eg:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3549710-Update-identifying-as-non-binary-for-work-award

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do