Can someone please help me out with pronouns

[Lollygaggles]

So how do I stand in terms of the current legislation, if I refer to a person by the pronouns of their birth, rather than their preferred pronouns?

Would it be compelled speech to be forced to collude with a belief that I do not accept? Also, how does my freedom not to be discriminated against because of my beliefs ( ie that people can't change sex) play out against the protections of Gender Reassignment and the trans person's rights as a legal member of the opposite sex ( though not a biological one.)

Would I be acting in a discriminatory way under the EA by referring to a person as their birth sex, when they have transitioned?

I want to be able to articulate my position very clearly, with reference to the law, but I don't actually know where we are as the law stands on competing rights.

Can anyone help me unpick it please?

Ha! limpbizkit you're not keeping up with the times. You know that trans includes all the flavours of genderspecials, right? There are quite a number of social circles and hobbies where it seems like every other person is an enby or genderqueer with they/them, zie, xir and other types of pronouns... And the gender fluids who alternate between he/she/they. (Who knows how you're meant to refer to an agender person... )

And we all know how awful it is for these trans people because they are misgendered every day.
chronicle.durhamcollege.ca/2017/03/misgendering-not-silent-killer/

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa.
Absolutely the wrong thing to do according to the above article and many others. One must never assume a person's gender identity. This is the first principle you learn either online or in person.

Here's a helpful video explaining all those new gender pronouns.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNGkwGYE4E

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa

Define “womens clothes”.

I almost exclusively wear jeans, vest top and hoodie. I am a woman, biologically and otherwise.

If you saw a biological male dressed in jeans, vest top and hoodie, is he dressed in “womens clothes”?

Or am I dressed in “mens clothes”?. I do not want to be referred to as he though, as i am not a man.

If the hoodie was pink, would that make a difference?

Growing up in the 80’s make up on men was fairly normal. See boy george, marilyn, adam ant, and many other pop stars of the day. None wanted to be called “she”.

Yes crone, you raise good points.

I wonder if anyone here has any legal training and could advise on the points raised by the OP.

She was interested in the legal position regarding this, rather than just the "be kind" responses.

I'd be interested to read any legal guidance on this myself testing but I think the broad definition of hate crime can't be clearly defined currently, and no one really knows, including the police, how to apply hate crime that is 'transphobic' in motivation, particularly when it comes to pronouns and 'misgendering'.

You can report a hate crime on behalf of someone else so it doesn't even need to be the 'victim' reporting hurty feelz.

If there were clear, uncomplicated definitions and limitations it would be helpful for us all. Is it only conscious 'misgendering' that counts? Is it only genuine uncertainty around seeing someone's sex as reality that counts?

Thanks for everyone who's got back to me and for the wider discussion, I'll do proper replies later today when there's more time For the avoidance of doubt in my case, this is one particular person I'm referring to who I think will potentially kick off. Obviously I don't want that hassle, but equally I feel very bloody minded about being co-opted into language which is patently false and ideologically damaging to women in my view. If the EA accepts dignity as sufficient cause to exclude males from single-sex provision, then how about that loss of dignity being carried over into a situation where you're compelled to reject your own reality in speech. Maybe that's a stretch. I need to ponder with the help of you lot.

Have you seen this article OP?
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Most trans people just want to live quietly

So can you clarify, does misgendering not matter to those who just want to live their lives, or is it literal violence that is killing trans people?

Can you tell MNHQ what you think the rules should be on misgendering? TIA.

@bluebluezoo I dunno... Here's a novel idea... Why don't you just treat that person as say...a human being? As you do rightly and smugly point out.. Does it make a shots bit of difference if they're wearing mens or womens clothes? Whether they're he or she? As you rightly say - no it diesbt. You've answered you're own dilemma. If you were inserting a catheter you may well need to be prepared for whats in their pants. If not - pera a stop worrying about it and be a decent courteous human being

@NotBadConsidering I think you're absolutely right. I doubt most trans people would make a song or dance about being called he or she. If the intent was malicious and to purposefully cause offence then yes they have every right to feel offended.

So in that case, would you advocate for a removal of the rules about pronouns here? The vast majority of posters here use the pronouns we have been conditioned to use over a lifetime of matching them to the sex of a person. If it doesn’t really matter, why is the world of trans activists exerting so much pressure on everyone else to be sure they get it right?

I know a worker in our local community who had a female to make transition. So born female - now identifies as make. When she was a woman she looked like a man, sounded like a man. Now he has transitioned he looks super cool with his short stubble deeper voice and mens clothes (don't be prissy about that one) he has a badge that now reads 'John' instead of 'Joanne' he's bloody lovely and seems so much happier in himself. I always think of him when these god awful thoughtless bullying threads come up.

Male not make

Causing offence to someone isn't a crime though is it limp?

I thought your daddy issues comment was offensive but I'm not about to take you to court for it.

@bluebluezoo I dunno... Here's a novel idea... Why don't you just treat that person as say...a human being?

Eh? Where do you get the idea I don’t?

I was responding to someone who suggested someone’s gender is defined by what clothes they wear. That “womens” and “mens” clothes are completely separate and recognisable.

I don’t care what people wear, and happen to believe we should be able to wear what the fuck we want without being stereotyped.

I don’t give a crap about gender either. I don’t care if you’re male or female, i’ll treat you as a person not as an extension if your genitals.

Perhaps you should be nicer to people and stop assuming people aren’t decent and courteous because They don’t think women should wear skirts and men trousers, and have their gender identity assumed on that basis....

Also pretty presumptuous of you to think that posters here hate men. How do you know they are not men?

Why would using a pronoun be hateful?

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

@OhHolyJesus because in many previous threads there's this absurd obsession with men wanting to transition to women for the sole purpose of perving at women in changing rooms.

... men wanting to transition to women for the sole purpose of perving at women in changing rooms...

You are right to bring this up. How can you tell the difference between the nice ones and the creeps?

Do you have a rule of thumb for that one?

... I thought your daddy issues comment was offensive but I'm not about to take you to court for it...

Excellent!

these god awful thoughtless bullying threads

Where is the bullying, though? I have't seen any bullying, but there have been some pretty offensive comments from you, such as:

"I think half you feminists have got deep rooted 'daddy' issues a probably need a heck of a lot of therapy for your hatred of men"

What evidence have you seen of 'hatred of men' here? How does the importance of recognising someone's sex become 'hatred of men'? How does not wanting children to be taught that they can change sex, and that their sex is a 'choice' become 'hatred of men'? Did you post this on the wrong thread?

Whether a man wears a dress to perv on women or whether he wears jeans or a polka dot bikini, I really don't give a toss. None of the above are welcome in single sex spaces for women.

I don't hate men, I dislike some men:

Donald Trump
Boris Johnson
Robert Mugabe
Putin

To name a few.

What's pronouns got to do with this limp?

@HorseRadishFemish that's a bit like saying which black people are more likely to steal our purse in the changing rooms? Think about it. Same difference. Same discriminatory dangerous attitude

in many previous threads there's this absurd obsession with men wanting to transition to women for the sole purpose of perving at women in changing rooms.

So according to you, being concerned about men using women's changing rooms means that we hate all men? Have I understood you correctly? Can you explain the thought processes which brought you to this conclusion?