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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can someone please help me out with pronouns

281 replies

Lollygaggles · 23/04/2020 21:27

So how do I stand in terms of the current legislation, if I refer to a person by the pronouns of their birth, rather than their preferred pronouns?

Would it be compelled speech to be forced to collude with a belief that I do not accept? Also, how does my freedom not to be discriminated against because of my beliefs ( ie that people can't change sex) play out against the protections of Gender Reassignment and the trans person's rights as a legal member of the opposite sex ( though not a biological one.)

Would I be acting in a discriminatory way under the EA by referring to a person as their birth sex, when they have transitioned?

I want to be able to articulate my position very clearly, with reference to the law, but I don't actually know where we are as the law stands on competing rights.

Can anyone help me unpick it please?

OP posts:
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Soontobe60 · 25/04/2020 09:25

@HedgeWitch79

quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

Makes for an interesting read. The very nature of AGP, which absolutely does exist as a condition, means that it's crucial to those who have this 'condition' to debunk it as a diagnosis, as it would mean that they couldn't get sexual gratification anymore.

HorseRadishFemish · 25/04/2020 09:28

.. So why is it that we're told it's not a mental health problem?..

Yes, bloody annoying that.

It's obviously not a physical problem.

HorseRadishFemish · 25/04/2020 09:30

Hedge proving here that he doesn't understand what compelled speech is:

... Is it "compelled speech" if your boss asks you stop calling your co-worker a dingbat?..

midgebabe · 25/04/2020 09:36

Dingbat is a word that is an insult, that means stupid person

Are you saying that I am insulting my friends when I refer to them as he?

Should I refer to all males as she in future to avoid insulting them?

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 09:45

Hedge proving here that he doesn't understand what compelled speech is

Maybe the proposed literacy revision lessons should be widened to include comprehension skills?

RiftGibbon · 25/04/2020 09:58

I know 3 trans people. Regardless of what my personal opinions are, I address them by the name/pronoun they wish to have used.
What they choose to call themselves, and how they wish to live does not affect me one iota.

If my DC wishes to transition later in life then I would do my utmost to fully research all angles of the situation and talk with them in detail about how they felt/why they felt they needed to 'change themselves'.

midgebabe · 25/04/2020 10:02

Well that's fine for you
But you cannot extrapolate to everyone , just because it doesn't impact you you cannot assume it does not impact others

My tolerance to being nice is person dependent. Those who are nice and considerate to me I will make more effort to accommodate their preferences, those who act like bullies on the other hand.....

Lamahaha · 25/04/2020 10:10

It's not a neutral thing, you are actively and repeatedly asserting your rejection of their identity every single time you refer to them. I think there's a great deal of people here who really have their head in the sands as to how it looks and feels to have someone do that to you.

But I don't believe in gender identity. I don't believe gender identity is real. In fact, I believe that "gender identity" is an illusion we all have to get over, as it is a refers to stereotypes, cliches, internal feelings. It is subjective and cannot be verified. Biological sex is a different matter; it is verifiable objective reality.

I do not reject you (hypothetical you) as a human being; I simply do not share your beliefs, just as I do not share the beliefs and religions of some of my friends and relatives, and still accept or even love them as human beings. None of my friends/relatives with whom I disagree on various matters is offended because of that disbelief. We are a lot more than our beliefs, a lot more than our so-called "identity".

(As an aside, the disbelief in gender identity is part of my own "religion" - not really a religion, more of a philosophy - which is Vedanta, which regards gender as just one of many personal attributes Vedantists are encouraged to overcome, as they exist only in thought.)

You are welcome to believe you are a different "gender" to your biological sex. But I do not believe this, and I won't lie. I will refer to you as "you" in your presence and as "he" or "she" when speaking of you to someone else, depending on your anatomy, which in the vast amount of cases will be perfectly obvious without having to look in your pants.

Humans are hard-wired to recognise males and females and distinguish between them. We need to be able to do so for a variety of reasons, including reproduction and the safety of females. This is objective reality. Humans have managed to do this for millennia. Humans aren't confused about the difference in the sexes. We all know the truth; our senses tell us.

Why is the trans persons need to be validated more important than my need to be truthful?

Datun · 25/04/2020 10:24

*Makes for an interesting read. The very nature of AGP, which absolutely does exist as a condition, means that it's crucial to those who have this 'condition' to debunk it as a diagnosis, as it would mean that they couldn't get sexual gratification anymore.

Hence Grayson Perry saying he has stopped going out as 'Claire'. Because too many people know. The thrill has gone.

Perry has written extensively about his sexual motivation for cross dressing in the Telegraph, etc.

I know 3 trans people. Regardless of what my personal opinions are, I address them by the name/pronoun they wish to have used.
What they choose to call themselves, and how they wish to live does not affect me one iota.

And if one, or all of those transwomen was AGP, rift?

Datun · 25/04/2020 10:25

Oops sorry, bold fail.

OldCrone · 25/04/2020 11:22

@HedgeWitch79

You have referred a number of times to the Maya Forstater case, but you have repeatedly misrepresented her case. You said:

In short, the judge said she was perfectly entitled to her beliefs about sex and gender, but her beliefs did not make it okay for her to be directly rude or hostile towards trans colleagues. (And again, persistently and deliberately using pronouns you know someone dislikes does unavoidably come across as rude and hostile, and it would be very difficult to argue convincingly otherwise)

Let me remind you of Maya's own words quoted in the judgement (p8):

Of course in social situations I would treat any transwomen as an honourary female, and use whatever pronouns etc...I wouldn't try to hurt anyone's feelings but I don't think people should be compelled to play along with literal delusions like"transwomen are women"

You say you are 'very familiar' with the Forstater case, yet you seem not to have understood this very basic and central point. She was not rude to transgender colleagues, she was willing to use their preferred pronouns and forms of address. Her arguments are with the ideology.

Go back and read the judgement again and at least make an attempt to understand. On this point the judgement is crystal clear so there is no excuse for your misinterpretation.

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 11:30

Regardless of what my personal opinions are, I address them by the name/pronoun they wish to have used.

When addressing someone the pronoun used is 'you'. It is not sex specific & can be singular or plural.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/04/2020 11:31

TalktoLang, can you name any actual concrete way in which any legal right a woman holds is infringed upon by asking her to refer to a trans colleague by their preferred pronoun?

Ah Hedge. Women’s rights. Who cares anyway, amirite? Unless the “women” have a penis, of course! SUPER important they have their rights then!

But let’s just imagine you do actually want to educate yourself about this.

So. There’s what NotBadConsidering said:

But compelled use of pronouns is part of a wider issue of the dismantling of women’s rights, so it’s not just a benign “be nice to the customers” policy. It’s about being compelled to speak an untruth, regardless of how that impacts a person.

I do not share the irrational, misogynist belief that men who identify as women actually are women. You would compel me to act as if I do, because the feelings of the man who identifies as a woman are more important than my feelings. That’s sexism 101, female (and male) socialisation in all its glory - and bugger all to do with equality. So my rights to my beliefs have already been taken away.

A religious equivalent would be to demand that non-Muslims utter the words “peace be upon him” after any mention of the prophet Mohammed. In an environment where the prophet Mohammed was regularly and routinely referred to. Nobody expects this as it would be an obvious infringement of people’s rights to their own religious beliefs or lack thereof. Having to refer to people we categorically KNOW to be male as if they were female would be exactly the same infringement of our rights as compelling non-Muslims to use terms like PBUH, or non-Catholics to make the sign of the cross, etc etc. It’s a sign that you believe in and agree with the ideology, which those who don’t believe should be free from any obligation to do.

Then, as NotBad, also said, there’s the question of where pronoun usage leads to. Language is powerful. TRAs know this, otherwise why would they (oh alright, you, Hedge!) be so invested in controlling the language of everyone around them? If we agree that Dave from accounts is actually Danielle and refer to him as “she”, then it becomes easier for Dave/Danielle to demand access to the women’s toilets, and harder for women who aren’t ok with that to deny him.

It may be particularly hard for women who aren’t really comfortable with it but can’t articulate why, whose instinct, as a result of female socialisation, is to want to “be kind” to Dave/Danielle, but yet who aren’t in their heart of hearts happy at the idea. These women will have been on “equality and diversity” trainings organised/led by someone like Hedge and will have been told that their discomfort is a sign of their unattractive bigotry, which should be rooted out. They may feel ashamed of their true feelings and that they must hide them at all costs. Meanwhile, other women are also feeling uncomfortable but because the prevailing doctrine in the workplace is “TWAW”, no one dares say anything. And of course as well as the bearing the internalised, misplaced shame, women actually fear disciplinary action or losing their jobs if they speak out.

In the context of the historical suppression of women’s voices, the social pressure placed on women to be kind, to think of others first, the weight of guilt and shame that is still placed on women in all sorts of ways, the still widespread notion (whether conscious or unconscious) that males, not females, are the default humans - this is a very serious breach of women’s rights.

Add in the truly shocking prevalence of sexual harassment and sexual violence against women and the need for single sex spaces that are truly single sex becomes even more pressing. Whether Dave/Danielle is himself a predator or not, giving him permission to be in what was formerly a single sex space makes it easier for any male who is a predator to also gain access to those spaces. Even if Dave/Danielle has no predatory intentions whatsoever, and not even a hint of AGP (unlikely, I know, but let’s imagine), his presence in a space that women could traditionally rely on to be male-free could still be triggering and traumatising for someone who has suffered male sexual assault.

And it’s not just the toilets, is it? Perhaps there are showers at work and communal changing rooms. If Dave/Danielle now has access to the women’s toilets, it’s that much harder to deny him access to other single sex spaces. Or to programmes aimed at redressing the inequality between the sexes. So Kevin/Kathy in IT, who has was not socialised as a female, who has forged his career with all the benefits of male privilege, with none of the disadvantage of being perceived as female, none of the discrimination around his childbearing potential, who has never faced the challenge of being the only female in a male dominated environment, never had to cope with everyday sexism in his life and work - Kevin/Kathy is now entitled to a place on the Women in STEM programme. Or a place in the networks set up by and for women to support each other, to combat their specific disadvantage, meaning that those networks now have to accommodate someone with a very different type of life experience.

And given the reality of female and male socialisation, the likelihood is (and this is borne out by many stories I have heard from those who have experienced just this) that the network will become massively about Kevin/Kathy, at the expense of the women involved. The focus will shift to him and his issues. Women will set their own needs aside in deference to his. And it is certain that this will no longer be a women only space, the dynamic will have shifted for ever.

Dave/Danielle and Kevin/Kathy are of course now too eligible for awards intended to highlight women’s achievements. Like Pips Bunce, they can be ”recognised” and honoured for having contributed to women’s advancement, despite the fact that the reality of their achievements has only been to further disadvantage women, to further perpetuate entrenched stereotypes, to invade women’s networks, to block an actual woman from receiving the award that has gone to them instead. Just as sportswomen are being denied places in the podium, winners’ medals, college scholarships because men and boys who identify as women and girls are taking the places that were meant for them, the actual women and girls.

The idea that it’s “only” pronouns is a myth. Even if it were “only pronouns” it is still an infringement of women’s rights in a supposedly free society, but it never is “only” pronouns.

And fundamentally it’s about making women collude in their own oppression. Transactivist ideology is at root misogynistic. It rigidly reinforces sex stereotypes, propagates the myth of the pink lady brain and the blue man brain, reduces people to conformity with outdated, offensive ideas of men’s roles and women’s roles.

Transactivism seeks to remove women’s much needed boundaries, in a world where we are still (and always will be, in physical terms at least) the more vulnerable sex, and deny us the autonomy that we have fought so long and hard for and only relatively recently started to gain.

The issue of “preferred pronouns” is a part of this misogynistic removal of women’s boundaries and autonomy, and forcing women to use pronouns we know are false is forcing us to enable a system that is attacking us and our rights.

To come back to the religion analogy, it’s much as if we were living under a fundamentalist religion which was very clear and overt about women being the second sex (as they usually are) and we had to continually show by some physical or verbal sign that we subscribed to our own oppression. It’s not that hard a leap; it’s still reality in many parts of the world today.

I know it’s already been linked but Barracker’s peerless Pronouns are Rohypnol piece is always, always worth looking at again:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

So, Hedge, now you know exactly in what ways women’s rights are being erased, can you tell me exactly why it is women’s rights are so unimportant and irrelevant to you?

I’ll wait.

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 11:47

Then, as NotBad, also said, there’s the question of where pronoun usage leads to. Language is powerful. TRAs know this, otherwise why would they (oh alright, you, Hedge!) be so invested in controlling the language of everyone around them? If we agree that Dave from accounts is actually Danielle and refer to him as “she”, then it becomes easier for Dave/Danielle to demand access to the women’s toilets, and harder for women who aren’t ok with that to deny him.

Scottish legislation proposes using polite mis-sexing as core evidence that a man without a GRC is a woman & female.

Scottish Legal
Blog: Shifting sands on the definition of ‘woman’ in Scots law
Published 21 April 2020
by Dr Kath Murray, Lisa Mackenzie and Lucy Hunter Blackburn

'Blog: Shifting sands on the definition of ‘woman’ in Scots law'
(extract)
"This expanded definition of ‘woman’ was introduced at stage 2 of the legislative process, following representations from the Scottish Trans Alliance. It brings within scope some people who have not changed their legal sex to ‘female’ using a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and excludes some people who remain female in law (those transitioning to live as men, without a GRC).

In 2019 the Scottish government consulted on the implementation of the act. The consultation document included draft guidance, which set out examples of acceptable ‘evidence that the person was continuously living as a woman’, all of which are linguistic in nature:

“always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; describing themselves and being described by others in written or other communication using female language.”(continues)

The debate, of course, goes far wider than the Public Boards Act. Defining who is a woman in law and policy has been the subject of intense debate in recent years. While the UK and Scottish governments have both paused their plans for reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), all the main political parties support amending the GRA, and have at some point advocated that individuals should be able to change their legal sex by making a statutory declaration (often referred to as ‘self-ID’). For instance, speaking at an event on the political representation of women in 2018, Liberal Democrat President Sally Brinton stated that she would be happy with a ‘gender-balanced’ parliament made up of 50 per cent men and 50 per cent trans women.

Despite its earlier interest in consistency with the Equality Act 2010, the concerns raised about the definitions used in the GRPB Act 2018 have not caused the Scottish government to pause and the act will come fully into force at the end of next month. The planned guidance does not appear to have been issued yet, and the Scottish government has not commented on the points made in the consultation analysis."
www.scottishlegal.com/article/blog-shifting-sands-on-the-definition-of-woman-in-scots-law

extended article by MSB:
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/04/21/shifting-sands-on-the-definition-of-woman-in-scots-law-the-journey-of-the-gender-representation-on-public-boards-act-from-consultation-to-implementation/

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/04/2020 11:59

Scottish legislation proposes using polite mis-sexing as core evidence that a man without a GRC is a woman & female.

They’ve got us coming and going, every which way, haven’t they R0?

You must use their pronouns! Otherwise it’s unkind and you’re a bad person! What harm will it do you anyway?

And: You used their pronouns! That’s PROOF you believe they’re a woman, proof they ARE a woman, suck it up buttercup and allow them access to every single women only space there is!

ScapaFlo · 25/04/2020 12:27

Talking thanks for that post. That's fantastic. Again!

A few years ago I came across Athena Swan awards. Athena Swan was set up in 2005 to support and promote women into STEMM (science, technology, engineering, maths and medicine) careers in education and research. It was expanded in 2015 to include the arts, humanities, business, law etc and support staff. And trans. So it went from being a women-only support and encouragement charter to a mixed-sex charter just by adding that one word. And, true to form (this is seen everywhere), it became less about women and more about men. I got a bollocking from a gay man because I said I thought it was great that it had been women only. His instant and instinctive response was 'what about the men' and how good it was that it was now non-discriminatory. He also told me that women don't suffer from oppression and discrimination Shock

This is what happens when gender identity overrules sex. Women lose out. Again.

merrymouse · 25/04/2020 12:33

My colleagues use the pronoun 'you' when referring to me in my presence.

merrymouse · 25/04/2020 12:33

My pronouns are 'I' and 'me'.

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 12:39

You must use their pronouns! Otherwise it’s unkind and you’re a bad person! What harm will it do you anyway?

And: You used their pronouns! That’s PROOF you believe they’re a woman, proof they ARE a woman,

Similar dynamic with changing identity documents.

  1. What harm will it do anyone to change passport? Its just to protect me from being misgendered, makes no difference to anyone else. Its not about changing sex, I know that people don't change sex. My GP writes a letter confirming that Im being treated for dysphoria. Why should anyone else care?

  2. Look my passport says female sex so its proof I am. Scottish government confirms men without a GRC must be regarded as female & women as passport says so.

merrymouse · 25/04/2020 12:49

But I don't believe in gender identity. I don't believe gender identity is real. In fact, I believe that "gender identity" is an illusion we all have to get over, as it is a refers to stereotypes, cliches, internal feelings. It is subjective and cannot be verified. Biological sex is a different matter; it is verifiable objective reality.

I think this is the key point. We are being forced to endorse a belief system that traps people in gender boxes and takes away the language that women need to talk about the services and protections that enable them to participate equally in society.

GinnyLane · 25/04/2020 13:00

wildly applauds Talkingto LangClegintheDark

TyroSaysMeow · 25/04/2020 13:05

R0 I can't comment on the education system elsewhere but in England schoolkids weren't taught English grammar in the 90s and 00s. I recall we covered noun, verb, adjective, adverb in primary school. Everything else had to wait until A Level German (which is why to this day I cannot spell Dativ in English).

DD is in year 2 and they learn things I was never taught, and I have a degree in English, so clearly things have changed, but yes, there is definitely a whole generation with no idea that pronouns go beyond the level of er, sie and das.

HorseRadishFemish · 25/04/2020 13:06

Excellent post talkingto and as per I've had to copy to make sure it doesn't mysteriously disappear.

I am very interested to hear what hedge has to say in reply but I have a feeling he might not reply at all.

R0wantrees · 25/04/2020 13:21

I can't comment on the education system elsewhere but in England schoolkids weren't taught English grammar in the 90s and 00s. I recall we covered noun, verb, adjective, adverb in primary school.

There was a substantive deliberate policy driven shift in UK late 1990's about how literacy was to be taught & promoted

Pronoun song which will become an ear-worm for many:

Lamahaha · 25/04/2020 13:21

wildly applauds Talkingto LangClegintheDark

Seconded!