Talk

Advanced search

Civil Service Trans policy - what can I do?

(357 Posts)
DoxxMeTwice Thu 28-Feb-19 14:44:15

Following an awful "workplace inclusion" meeting today I was prompted to check out my work policy for Trans (link below).

I work for the Civil Service ( name changed, as I was previously doxed and can't risk it here).

Page 31 is particularly bad, I feel like it implies that any woman who objects to sharing single sex facilities will be disciplined for being discriminatory.

This policy is clearly being put into practice as during my meeting today it was discussed that a Trans Woman was left hurt and embarrassed recently after a woman did an immediate u-turn out of the toilets when she saw them. It was stated as a gentle warning to others to consider trans feelings.

The woman's feelings were not considered at all, though I expect she has probably since been vilified in her local office!

Does anyone have any real life examples of policies like this being successfully challenged by using EHRC/Equalities act??

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/503663/Workplacee_GuideCSEPP_revisedFinall_V1_.pdf

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 28-Feb-19 14:52:00

^ left hurt and embarrassed recently after a woman did an immediate u-turn out of the toilets when she saw them^

So the expectation is that if a woman wanders into the loos and sees anything from a 'passable' transsexual to a strapping 6'5 hulk in a Boden frock and beard standing there they MUST say 'good morning Miss', go about their business, not look them in the eye or in any way give any indication that they don't feel 100% happy at their presence - they are completely at fault and should be burned at the stake for hurting the feelings of this person? Even if the woman herself feels scared, threatened or maybe has been the victim of a male assault and would risk having a panic attack being in an enclosed area?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 28-Feb-19 14:53:45

Yup I'd be peeing in a jiffy bag and leaving it in the pigeon hole of whoever decided this was a good idea.

DoxxMeTwice Thu 28-Feb-19 14:55:05

Extract from policy

*"
9. Single sex facilities
Agreement should be reached about when the transsexual person commences use of sanitary facilities such as toilets and changing rooms appropriate to their new gender role; usually this will be from the date of transition. Difficulties can arise if objections are raised by colleagues, which will need to be dealt with sensitively.

However, the 2010 act stipulates a person is no longer requires to be under medical supervision - so a person who decides to live permanently in the opposite gender, and whether completes or forgoes any medical procedure, is still protected by the act. Therefore post transition, it would be humiliating, inappropriate and undermining to expect a person in their acquired gender to
use toilet facilities of their birth sex or indeed be restricted to the use of the accessible toilet.

Any continued objection or inappropriate comments by work colleagues to the use of the facilities appropriate to the gender of transition should be seen as unreasonable (discriminatory) and should be met with communication, discussion and education before the situation gets out of hand. In this sometimes contentious area, transsexual employees are entitled to expect support from management.

Where there are changing facilities, showers etc., consideration needs to be given to ensure appropriate privacy for all staff, including transsexual staff members. If one is required to change into work clothes or uniform then an employer is obliged to ensure attention to the issues of privacy of all staff, for instance by the installation of individual changing and showering cubicles."*

TalkingintheDark Thu 28-Feb-19 14:56:36

Nothing useful to suggest, sorry, but that’s awful and makes me so angry.

Women being punished for wanting/having boundaries. Women’s feelings criminalised. Women (and girls in schools) being taught - yet again - that we are not entitled to prioritise our own feelings of discomfort or fear, but must always put the delicate sensibilities of a male first.

Not only are we supposed to share our single sex spaces, they demand that we act happy about it too?

I honestly believe this culture is actually evil.

DoxxMeTwice Thu 28-Feb-19 14:57:00

@LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD

I wish pigeon holes still existed!! grin

My biggest concern is that this seems to have been approved at the highest possible level!

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 28-Feb-19 14:59:26

We still have them here... I remember when a man in the ladies would have been sent to HR for a telling off.

You know the answer here - you MUST start using the gents (making sure that you demand a sanpro dispenser for when you are manstruating).

DoxxMeTwice Thu 28-Feb-19 15:01:08

@LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD

I feel that this would be career suicide.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 28-Feb-19 15:02:14

Sorry - I forgot you had a career (I had one once).

DoctoressPlague Thu 28-Feb-19 15:03:46

I'm not aware of any examples but I'm watching this area with interest since a friend of mine has found herself in a very difficult situation thanks to this policy.

Agreement should be reached about when the transsexual person commences use of sanitary facilities such as toilets and changing rooms appropriate to their new gender role; usually this will be from the date of transition. Difficulties can arise if objections are raised by colleagues, which will need to be dealt with sensitively. However, the 2010 act stipulates a person is no longer requires to be under medical supervision -so a person who decides to live permanently in the opposite gender, and whether completes or forgoes any medical procedure, is still protected by the act. Therefore post transition, it would be humiliating, inappropriate and undermining to expect a person in their acquired gender to use toilet facilities of their birth sex or indeed be restricted to the use of the accessible toilet.

So "post transition" is now a meaningless concept (anyone can be a 'transsexual'), yet it trumps women's right to single-sex spaces. There has to be a way to challenge this.

HelpTheTigers Thu 28-Feb-19 15:04:27

As no one is allowed to enquire if anyone has a GRA (hateful) and we are not allowed to be concerned that a man can be using self-id in a predatory manner (hateful), request that women-only spaces be kept for women only (hateful), or try to maintain privacy and dignity (hateful again), we are well and truly fucked over in all directions.
It's so good to know that The Establishment is basically misogynist and cares about the demands of the few and not the needs of the many.

EweSurname Thu 28-Feb-19 15:08:18

That's horrifying. So we have to be compliant, acquiescing and smilingly docile in our own oppression and erosion of boundaries?

It's bad enough to have them eroded but to be reprimanded for not plastering on a smile whilst enduring this is just hideous. No help I'm afraid, just anger that you're in this situation.

TalkingintheDark Thu 28-Feb-19 15:09:04

No one has EVER taken actual sexism/misogyny in the workplace this seriously, have they? Despite the widespread and known phenomenon of sexual harrassment and discrimination at work.

Where are all the many-paged documents telling men in the civil service how not to be misogynist arseholes towards the women they work with?

It couldn’t be clearer.
Males: full human beings in their own right.
Females: a sub- category of humans whose purpose is to enhance the life experience of males.

The longer this TRA bullshit goes on, and the more I see how it’s embedded in public/state institutions like the civil service, the more I see how misogyny is absolutely enshrined in the whole of society. And needs uprooting!

Nice idea, btw, Fekko grin

DoxxMeTwice Thu 28-Feb-19 15:10:19

@HelpTheTigers

* As no one is allowed to enquire if anyone has a GRA (hateful) and we are not allowed to be concerned that a man can be using self-id in a predatory manner (hateful), request that women-only spaces be kept for women only (hateful), or try to maintain privacy and dignity (hateful again), we are well and truly fucked over in all directions. *

Exactly!! There must be a legitimate was for me to object?

TalkingintheDark Thu 28-Feb-19 15:10:39

*The pigeon hole one, that is

WrecklessErica Thu 28-Feb-19 15:10:50

@ROwantrees - any advice?

UndersAndOvers Thu 28-Feb-19 15:12:33

When I worked at a large multinational company we had a anonymous staff survey each year. Some of the questions were: have you experienced bullying, did you report it, did you know who to report it to, was it resolved to your satisfaction. There was a free text box too.
If anyone ticked they had been bullied the management seemed to go into panic mode.
I would consider women are being bullied into accepting all this bullshit - and fill in the bullying questions.

TalkingintheDark Thu 28-Feb-19 15:12:42

HelpTheTigers - women saying no to men - hateful! Isn’t that one of the rules of misogyny?

MillytantForceit Thu 28-Feb-19 15:13:47

Page 8:

^"Many trans people, having transitioned permanently, prefer to be regarded as ordinary men and women, and therefore, cisgender. In these cases, where it becomes essential to refer to their pre-transition
status, the phrase ‘woman (or man) of trans history’ may be used."^

Now I'm confused.

So words basically mean nothing anymore.

DoxxMeTwice Thu 28-Feb-19 15:16:10

@MillytantForceit

ordinary men and woman ? So the policy is actual transphobic then?

MillytantForceit Thu 28-Feb-19 15:17:28

"Many...."

How many?

Who's counting?

TalkingintheDark Thu 28-Feb-19 15:17:59

Yy UndersAndOvers, women are absolutely being bullied here. But when those who are supposed to protect their staff from bullying are the ones who are enabling it, and it would be your career on the line if you point that out, it’s a little tricky.

Sooner or later there will be enough of us aware and refusing to go along with it all that we can start to say no. I think we will have to see legal test cases brought where we argue the case for women’s right to privacy/single sex services etc, argue that our human rights are being massively breached.

Notwotuknow Thu 28-Feb-19 15:21:55

So, women who are uncomfortable must be educated.

That's pretty worrying.

UndersAndOvers Thu 28-Feb-19 15:22:32

talkinginthedark - even in an anonymous survey?

nauticant Thu 28-Feb-19 15:23:11

So "post transition" is now a meaningless concept

This could be a bloke in a suit with a beard suddenly announcing "I decided I was a woman a week last Tuesday" leaving their poor colleagues to tot up how many misgenderings, pronoun infractions, and microaggressions they'd inadvertently committed.

Join the discussion

Registering is free, quick, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Get started »