"My 15 yr old trans son is going through menopause - and I'm so proud of him"

[bettybeans]

http://www.essentialkids.com.au/health/health-wellbeing/my-15yearold-transgender-son-is-going-through-menopause--and-im-so-proud-of-him-20200416-h1nfe0

Christ almighty. I have been trying very hard not to go in heavy on parents of trans kids who make decisions that I simply don't understand but this whole situation just brought out absolute fury. The way she speaks about this process just enrages and saddens me in a way I can't adequately articulate. It's quite simply terrifying. I feel like I'm reading about a baptism or something.

This kid didn't stand a chance and it's absolutely heartbreaking.

I read a list of characteristiscs/traits/behaviours today of autistic women. I believe it was shared on a MN thread.

Amongst the traits is ROGD, transgenderism.

I feel very uncomfortable with this. I am autistic. I don't recognise myself in a lot of the 'feminine' stereotypes and l, as a teen, I dressed 'like a boy'and emulated the behaviours/gait of many of my male friends/peers.

I'm still not particularly 'feminine' now and I dress for comfort rather than appearances.

It concerns me greatly that this is now being lauded as an 'autistic trait'. Not the non conformity but the idea that, if you don't conform, you are 'trans'.

I am a woman because my body is female. How I choose to present or feel comfortable is a separate thing and its fine to not conform to 'female gender stereotypes' without mutilating your body in the process.

I also read the article. This greatly concerns me.

More than that, if someone had suggested this t o me when i were a teen, I'd have been very susceptible to it.

I just think there's a few issues that need to be considered..

Firstly we cannot compare the medical process of transitioning across countries and continents due to HUGELY differing medical approaches.
For example ethical consideration is hugely different in America and the UK, as America is pharmaceutical and profit lead, whereas it's a huge ethical boundary in the UK to be influenced by profiteering and pharmaceutical companies and theres much more red tape. As for Australia I'm not sure, but from the limited discussion with family living their it seems to be very in the middle ground.
Therefore we cannot assume what is considered acceptable medical practice in one country would be how it would occur in another country.

Also theres always a lot of talk about detranisitioning and about how trans in culturally and socially influenced and gender dysphoria therefore does not 'exist?'.

But no consideration of those who have waited until adulthood to transition, as such having very difficult and traumatic childhoods, and are very very happy now having undergone a full transition. I actually happen to know a few adults who have done so and continue to be happy with their decisions.

It can only be a valid argument if all sides are considered and not just the one that pushes your personal narrative.

Likewise I find the assertion from some people that those who chose to transition or even those who may present as the opposite gender (gender fluid etc) may not and will not be acknowledged as their identifying gender. This attitude does boarder on transphobia rather then concern and safeguarding. If we dont want children to make the permanent decision to medically change their bodies in potentially harmful ways they will regret, by refusing to acknowledge their gender change WITHOUT them having made a permanent change, ultimately forces young people into medical procedures and medication just to have their current desires acknowledged.

If people acknowledged and accepted that Sally now wanted to be called sam and be a boy, then Sam would feel a lot less pressure to make permanent changes to prove they where serious about it, and as such if as they matured into adulthood and made peace with their mental health and disconnection, they would find it much easier to revert back to Sally. I worry that such dismissive attitudes force youths to push for more serious medical procedures to prove they are serious (at that moment) about changing due to this flippant attitude to accepting their beliefs.

It's similar to how people go through bicurious stages where they explore same sex relationships to decide if it's for them, if children didnt feel need to prove they where serious by using medical procedures, they may in a few years decide actually being a boy/girl isnt for them, in their own time.

And dont get me wrong I think that gender clinics and services for youths and adults have a LONG way to go before being suitable and appropriate for their purpose. But we need to consider the impact that society has through its attitudes into forcing and pushing children in one way or another.

CherryRedDocs

Yes, I have seen that sort of thing too. A mother I know who has an autistic daughter, and I suspect is herself autistic, is a big trans rights activist and more recently into autism awareness. She's been posting quite a bit of stuff about how autistic kids are less likely to have an alternate in gender identity - less in thrall to gender norms. She thinks this is because autistic people are less likely to be influenced by social conditioning and sees this as a big positive.

Should say, are more likely to have an alternate gender identty

If people acknowledged and accepted that Sally now wanted to be called sam and be a boy, then Sam would feel a lot less pressure to make permanent changes to prove they where serious about it, and as such if as they matured into adulthood and made peace with their mental health and disconnection, they would find it much easier to revert back to Sally

So other equally vulnerable children should accept lying and being lied to? Do what I say or I will hurt myself and it's your fault?

That's abusive.

Why is a path that is dependent on other peope going along with stuff being advised? The only people responsible for the welfare and medical treatment is Sally and Sally's parents and dr. No one else.

I am autistic myself, and growing up dressed for comfort and had short hair because it was just easier.
Sometimes I wore makeup and dressed in feminine clothing, and other times I wore assault boots, military cargos and a hoodie and actually got stopped more then once when going to use the womens toilets.

But I never felt a need to label my gender identity, as i was just Foxkit, nothing more, nothing less. I worry about this innessecent need to label everything different and cast judgement is also forcing issues that dont need to be forced. I imagine if I was back in my teens now I would be bombarded by peers and adults passing negative comment on my gender, my identity and even being met by transphobic attitudes although I never claimed to be anything but myself.

In fact I remember sexuality being the issue when I was in school, and due to my appearance I regularly got labelled a lesbian or even butch lesbian and again I've never personally seen a need to label my sexuality. Ive never "come out". I've always loved who I love, although I am in a straight marriage now, but that's simply because I feel in love and married a man, it could have easily been a women.

@SarahTancredi
Who on earth is sally hurting by exploring non medically if she wants to be sam? Obviously some common sense should be used regarding changing areas or gender restricted areas, but if we removed all this doubt and pressure then there would be much less horror about using the biological gender areas. I actually went to school with a guy, who was biologically a girl, who was met with nothing but acceptance, and was perfectly happy to use the female facilities due to knowing that it had no impact on how we as peers and staff accepted him. Who knows where they are now and if they decided to continuing transitioning or not, but I remember as a child it had absolutely no baring to myself or the other children. Children are accepting of anything, children are taught to not be accepting by learning from the attitudes of adults.

Why can't Sally be Sally.

Sally who likes what she likes and does what she likes without needing to have others pretend shes something else? Or have people tell her shes something else because of it.

Likewise I find the assertion from some people that those who chose to transition or even those who may present as the opposite gender (gender fluid etc) may not and will not be acknowledged as their identifying gender. This attitude does boarder on transphobia rather then concern and safeguarding

The idea that there are 'opposite genders' is ideological (rooted in Queer theory)
Its a restrictive & regressive ideology which cements sex-based stereotypes rather than challenging them.
Many people challenge sex based stereotypes & gendered expectations of masculinity/feminity

I can see why people might think that just accepting social transition might make medical transition less necessary. My feeling is that's nt really what happens though. In part because the underlying discomfort in many cases is really the body. And also because facing the reality of our bodies is itself an important part of our maturing process, and I don't think we can just opt out of that. (And why are we so convinced that this process is a bad thing just because it involves discomfort?)

But also because the fact of being a boy, being a girl, they are different, and when we come to terms with our bodies its not just as an individual apart from other individuals, totally unique. It's also about coming to terms with the fact that maleness and femaleness have all kinds of social and cultural impacts, that our fate as a sexed species is not just an aside. As women we may one day carry a child, be a mother, nurse babies, and we won't be men, or fathers. You can't change that or rage against it by calling yourself a boy, all you can do is try and fool yourself. And that is never a path to wholeness or wellness.

No it's not right that people should accept a girl as a boy. They should not be treating girls and boys different in the first flipping place .

I don't want to be treated as a women FFS. I want to be treated as a human being, with my own capabilities and character and I want no assumptions or treatment or reactions to be influenced by what sex I am.

For 99% of things people should not be making any differences in how they treat a boy or a girl
There are very few times when it matters , and then, sorry but it is sex that matters.

Because sally is working through her identity. And sally doing that isnt causing harm to anyone, as more often then not if met with acceptance sally will be happy to continue using female facilities if sally isnt being bullied for dressing how she likes.
The issue is when sally gets bullied for wanting to dress like a boy and then use female toilets, then sally might think it's easier to use the boy facilities as she looks and acts like that and therefore wont be treated with disgust and horror (which is taught to children and isnt a innate reaction). Sally might then decide to be called Sam as the girls dont want anything to do with sally as she acts and looks like a boy, but the boys wont take her seriously because shes called sally which is a girls name.

From my experiences of being in school in those exploring gender, and having friends with children who have explored gender, some whom after the novelty wore off decided to forget about it and are happy as their biological gender, and others who decided to transition in their late twenties,
I find often acceptance and the attitudes towards it have a huge influence on how it ultimately plays out.

And more often then not, those who are met with acceptance and acknowledgement, dont cause any of the issues that are widely worried about such as using the toilet and changing rooms as the opposite gender, as there isnt felt to be any need to do so, and often dont push for any serious medical procedures or medications, as they dont need to, they have nothing to prove and therefore are able to make the decision in later life as a adult.

But that's a bullying problem.mot am identity problem

Everyone should be free to play with or wear what they like. A girl in track suits with shirt hair is a girl in track suits with short hair
If kids dont accept that then that is a bullying problem and a problem with stereotypes or being challenged.

They can not use the toilets of the opposite gender because toilets are separate based on sex

Not being challenged
Stupid phone

For 99% of things people should not be making any differences in how they treat a boy or a girl. There are very few times when it matters , and then, sorry but it is sex that matters

That's a very modern situation though, isn't it? It depends on an economy where a lot of the work is interchangeable and often the most prestigious work is intellectual, where we can control reproduction, can feed infants with factory produced food.

It often strikes me that 100 years ago, no one would have fallen for this business of sex being unimportant or something we could forget about. Even if there was no sexism, people were just very aware of sex and its implications because they were very immediate and obvious.

I think there is a real tension between saying sex isn't very important in our cultural/social/economic arrangements, and trying to maintain that it is a very important divide to maintain. Our sense of who people are is always mediated culturally, because we are a cultural species.

And regardless of whether we want to be treated differently as a boy or a girl (and I have fought all my life to prove that I am just as capable as boys in every sense, nothing infuriated me more then being told to let one of the guys carry the heavy thing, or a women cant work that job as they cant cope with the heavy lifting etc), the reality is.. society will not change over night. We can not eradicate decades of social gender conditioning over night.

And I say that as someone who is in a marriage of almost reversed gender roles where my DH does nearly all the cooking and housework, and I do most the DIY and gardening. But if we want to stop gender conditioning, then we shouldn't be telling girls they cant dress or act like a boy because they are biologically a girl. That goes against the entire argument that we dont want to have to have gendered expectations.

The whole argument against trans is confused and convoluted, and is presented from many different angles.

Can girls not dress like boys because they are a girl?
Or do girls not have to identify as a boy to dress like a boy, because we dont want to acknowledge the boxes of gender and allow people to be who they want to be?

Girls and boys can wear what they like. They are still girls or boys .

Lying to them is not helpful and is abusive .

The issue is when sally gets bullied for wanting to dress like a boy and then use female toilets, then sally might think it's easier to use the boy facilities as she looks and acts like that and therefore wont be treated with disgust and horror (which is taught to children and isnt a innate reaction).

This is about the need to let clothes be clothes (as opposed to boy clothes & girl clothes) & manage bullying behaviour better.

The toilets & changing rooms are separated by sex for safety, dignity & privacy so no girl should have come to the conclusion that using boys' facilities is an option, let alone a preferable one. The failure here is with adults & it has Safeguarding implications.

Who on earth is sally hurting by exploring non medically if she wants to be sam?

It depends where this leads. Does it lead to Sally being more or less likely to end up sterilised? You've decided on the basis of no evidence at all that unless Sally is called Sam, then Sally will be more likely to end up having damaging medical treatments. This reminds me of "give me the treatments I'm demanding or else I'll physically harm myself".

You're engaging in a creative writing exercise.

Who on earth is sally hurting by exploring non medically if she wants to be sam?

It depends on what adopting the name Sam means to Sally.

If it means thinking that she can deny she is female, transition to be the opposite sex or include demands that other people collude with her not being female then this does have detrimental impact/s

Girls can dress how they like. Boys can dress how they like. And we know we are moving towards a sexism free society when we don't labels clothes girls or boys clothes unless we know the sex of the person wearing them .

But that's the point no one knows where it leads.
But that's fine, it allows sally the time to realise who she is, and to either a) grow out of it, or b) takes the pressure and the need to transition off her until shes matured into adulthood and is able to persue the options herself knowing that this is what she really needs. But ultimately it's the lesser evil and takes away Sally's need to push for more intrusive procedures until shes mature enough to really understand the potential harm. And sometimes saying no you cant dress as a boy because your a girl could do more harm by creating something that started by wanted to wear boys clothes because there comfier into wanting to fully transition as teens in particular experience rebellion as they develop and find their autonomy.

Ultimately children are people, and we should be stopping them from doing anything that has potential harm and damage in the long term without them having the maturity to understand the implications. This I fully agree with. It's our responsibility as adults. But we need to exercise that right as a parent with responsibilities for the correct reasons. Ones that come from the need to protect our children from potential future harm, and not because we believe boys are boys, girls are girls. Because on one hand I see people arguing transitioning shouldn't be needed to dress as the opposite gender because there should be flexibility to gender roles, and on the other people argue male=male, female=female which then leaves a big hole for those who have genuine gender dysphoria and who as adults do transition and live happily into old age feeling like the person they should be.