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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men pushing in in queues and not social distancing.

741 replies

HeIenaDove · 03/04/2020 20:32

I know in the scheme of things this is only small but its the bloody entitlement that gets to me.

When the new Coronavirus Bill came in last Thursday two men used the 2 m gap to try to push in front while i was queuing outside Tesco.

Re, social distancing , i try i really try to stay 2m from people at all times on the rare occasions but the amount of men who walk right next to me or towards me KNOWING that i will move.

This afternoon was the final straw Queuing outside Sainsburys observing the 2 m rule i had to wait until the queue moved to where the trolleys were . There was no way i could get to them BEFORE queuing and observe the 2m rule so i had to wait in the queue before i got to them. I leant across to put my pound in the slot and the FOUR men queuing behind me jumped the queue by moving along in front.

Im so fed up with the entitlement Every time its been a man EVERY TIME. Ive not seen this from women at all .

OP posts:
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/04/2020 23:28

I've been feeling the urge to make British comfort foods, seems to be a reaction to coronavirus related anxiety. Like building a cocoon made of carbohydrates and dairy.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2020 23:30

Yes, isnt it odd?

I had egg, chips & beans for supper.

FloralBunting · 06/04/2020 23:34

Everyone was moaning that I made casseroles 5 days in a row two weeks ago, and now I'm isolating and they can't pop down maccies anyway, they're all like "Muuuum, how do we make those big pot dinner things?"

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 06/04/2020 23:35

"Clearly you feel very angry - hence the 'WTF'"

Of course I'm angry. I'm a 73 year old Feminist on a page for Feminism and women's rights reading claptrap from misogynists. But that's not why I'm angry. It is, however, the reason I roll my eyes when I write WTF in response to people who are inordinately proud of their ignorance.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 06/04/2020 23:42

I just tried spelt flour for the first time today in popovers/yorkshires. It has a lovely flavor. I look forward to trying it in other applications.
Eldest went shopping for me last week and so as to cover all the bases he bought inactive dry yeast as well as active and several kinds of flour, one of which was spelt, as well as a number of things that prompted a WTF.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/04/2020 23:43

What were the WTF items?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/04/2020 23:43

Also keep us posted on what you make, I love your baking posts.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 06/04/2020 23:56

He's been fretting for over a month that if anyone breathes on me I will expire, so WTF is he doing buys a box of forty kazillion tall kitchen garbage bags? And what's the story with the albacore which I do not eat? The oddest was the deactivated yeast seasoning though.
I am hungry now so I am going to go outside and plant some potatoes.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/04/2020 00:04

Lots of people have gone mad with the toilet paper, but this is the first I've heard of bulk buying garbage bags.

I didn't know deactivated yeast was even a thing. What would you do with it? If he was able to get any active yeast then that's good, it's been in short supply where I am.

(I've also been feeling the urge to make bread, which my DH did not know I could do, so now he's in awe but there's no yeast, so.)

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 07/04/2020 00:32

I started some sourdough so I could bake bread without yeast in case I couldn't get any. Easy peasy. Equal parts by weight of flour and water, leave out at room temp so the wild yeasts can make themselves to home. Feed it every 12 to 24 hours with flour and water (no chlorinated water) Takes a couple weeks to attain enough vigor to make good bread. They say rye flour makes the most vigorous starter but I cannot confirm. There are people who sell dehydrated starter on eBay.

HeIenaDove · 07/04/2020 00:39

@DidoLamenting I simply have a photographic memory.

Dates places names. I creeped out one of my teachers when

i was ten by memorizing a whole play. Every part Every word.

Trouble with having a photographic memory though is i sometimes forget that others dont. But thats the only thing i do tend to forget.

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 07/04/2020 00:54

Helena that is really interesting. I have almost no capacity for learning poems quotes or plays by heart. I can't begin to understand how actors do it - but clearly they can.

It must be wonderful to be able to do this. I'm envious.

I have no problem with remembering technical facts and details but remembering things verbatim? No chance.

HeIenaDove · 07/04/2020 01:06

I think it makes up for the fact that im dyscalculic.

OP posts:
DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 07/04/2020 01:29

It is more about the social structures and cultures in which we all live, and/or were brought up in. Men included.

Yes!

Now if only we had a name for that system of entrenched cultural beliefs which trap us all.

I tell you what, and I’m just floating it out there as an idea, let’s say we call it the patriarchy.

Justhadathought · 07/04/2020 09:45

Of course I'm angry. I'm a 73 year old Feminist on a page for Feminism and women's rights reading claptrap from misogynists

Of course, you are entitled to be angry, and to nurture that anger as much as you wish But making sweeping generalisations about 'men' is not what feminism is about...certainly not for everyone...and you don't hold the final, autocratic decree of what feminism is, and who gets to be one.

I am really only here because of the TRA agenda.......because to me that is the single biggest existential threat to women, to the reality of the female existence, as a distinct category of person. I find it deeply offensive to suggest that a man can simply identify into being a woman, and I can clearly for see the quite profound issues with it.

I don't look at or read any other boards on Mumsnet and have no interest in them. But let me tell you that the whole generalised man-hating, women are innocent and virtuous and without personal agency or responsibility schtick is not for me...and it is exactly what puts many people off from labelling or identifying themselves as a 'feminist' - even if they actually do believe that women are full human beings( though of the female variety)- and as such should have the due respect and opportunities to express themselves that men traditionally have - as well as to have respect for their more 'feminine' roles.

Your attitude is exactly what gives feminism and self declared feminists a bad name...and as soon as i saw this thread - I thought" People are feeling bored and frustrated with the lock-down...and using it to vent their own self righteousness.....and i was right. I should have stayed away.

It has become an unpleasant and toxic thread for a few people to virtue signal, and to tell other women that they don't make the grade - because they refuse to be consumed by anger and hatred - at men in general.

Indeed, that because they have an alternative view to you they must be 'misogynists'. That to my mind is no better than TRA allies screaming "transphobe" or "bigot" at anyone who disagrees wit their pack mentality.

Go back to your sourdough and chill out.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/04/2020 09:57

Justhadathought

👏👏👏👏

Justhadathought · 07/04/2020 09:58

I tell you what, and I’m just floating it out there as an idea, let’s say we call it the patriarchy

How about not......It has become far too much of a cliche.......and belongs to a previous age.

If feminism doesn't re-evaluate itself and define itself anew ( certainly in the western societies in which equal legal & civil rights have already been achieved) it risks becoming an historical artefact - like the WRP or the SWP - that people cling to for comfort.

We are all human beings. Some of us are female and some of us are male. Biology is real and has impacts on behaviour. Male and female chemistry is different. Males and females, like all other creatures on the earth, have different biological functions - which tends to extend to different kinds of roles.

However, what makes humans different is the ability for consciousness, agency and personal responsibility: the potential to modify our instincts and urges and to channel them in different ways.This possibility exists for both males and females.

"Patriarchy' is such a blunt tool - and as an automatic stock phrase has had its day.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 07/04/2020 10:01

Im awake now (just)

I’d argue with the person who called me Arguementative

But I can’t be arsed

I had a beautiful sourdough baby last year but i had to kill it because I’m crap at making the actual bread

I might do another one when this is over because in January i was thinking of getting a breadmaker...THAT didn’t happen obviously. And we might get a portable pizza oven so we can do sourdough pizza

And I forgot to make the yorkies...I’ll try and get round to it today, you sprinkle parmesan on the top as they go in the oven

Comicshadows · 07/04/2020 10:14

Justhadathought

It's obvious that I'm new to all this. And my first foray onto the feminism board was not my finest hour. I am not well educated, or particularly articulate. I just wanted to say that your posts this morning are exactly what I would want to say and exactly how I feel. Thank you. 👏👏👏👏

Strangerthantruth · 07/04/2020 10:40

"man-hating, women are innocent and virtuous and without personal agency or responsibility schtick is not for me...and it is exactly what puts many people off from labelling or identifying themselves as a 'feminist"

What?

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 10:42

as i saw this thread - I thought" People are feeling bored and frustrated with the lock-down...and using it to vent their own self righteousness

I have had similar thoughts.

NiteFlights · 07/04/2020 10:45

I wish the patriarchy would re-evaluate itself and define itself anew Wink

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 07/04/2020 10:46

stranger

Yeah, I don’t think that way and i know a lot of people don’t but that it the takeaway for some people

I know just isnt saying thats everyone on FWR, personal experience has shown me that there are a lot of different Views even from people who ‘agree’

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/04/2020 10:55

How is it if women do something anti feminist, that they are excused because they are victims of patriarchy eg have been raised around certain ideas, their views of what is and isn't acceptable are shaped by the patriarchy and yet we expect men and boys to be able to break free of those very same ideas and social concepts and to tear down the patriarchy?

In essence, how come you think.men are capable of thinking outside of the influence or patriarchy but you don't think women can do the same?

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:27

If feminism doesn't re-evaluate itself and define itself anew ( certainly in the western societies in which equal legal & civil rights have already been achieved) it risks becoming an historical artefact - like the WRP or the SWP - that people cling to for comfort.

Its already happening & internationally.

February 2020 Lynne Walsh for Morning Star on 2020 Women's Liberation Conference at UCL (organised by WPUK, FiLIA & Southall Black Sisters)

'Women’s liberation bursts back onto the scene
Almost 1,000 women packed out University College London at the weekend to discuss their sex-based rights as part of a rejuvenated and growing movement.'
(extract)
S been a long time since this country has really witnessed the phenomenon known as the Women’s Liberation Movement.

Glance at a timeline helpfully provided by the British Library, and you’ll see the launch of the contraceptive pill in 1961, real liberation made possible by the hard slog of campaigners, as was the Abortion Act of 1967. A year later, the Ford factory workers at Dagenham won equal pay.

Those burning issues, plus demands for equal job opportunities and free 24-hour nurseries, formed the agenda for the first meeting of the WLM in 1970, at Ruskin College, Oxford. More than 600 women attended: a few men ran the creche.

Subsequent years saw a flurry of historic victories and campaigns which improved women’s lives in fundamental ways.

In 1971, the first women’s refuge opened. In 1973, Britain’s first rape-crisis centre was set up. Two years later came the Sex Discrimination Act. In 1970, the renowned Southall Black Sisters started campaigning.

There’s a hiccup in the heroism of sisterhood in 1979 when Margaret Thatcher became the country’s first female prime minister.

In spite, rather than because of that, the movement surged on, and the prevailing vibe of the 1980s could be summed up as anti-Thatcherism. The woman at the top was no sister of ours.

In 1981, a group of women marched from Wales to a little-known RAF base at Greenham Common, where they stayed to protest, scale fences to dance atop the silos and ululate through the night, unnerving squaddies guarding the base.

1984 saw Women Against Pit Closures holding together their communities, feeding thousands, and often joining violent picket lines when their miner menfolk had been arrested.

In 1987 Diane Abbott became the first black woman to be elected to the House of Commons.

The British Library’s helpful timeline ends in 1988. The years between then and now have been harsh, with cuts to the public and third sectors. Women are bearing the brunt of so-called austerity, refuges and rape-crisis centres have closed, and childcare has fallen victim to privatisation.

Women’s informal discussions invariably cite one big topic: exhaustion. Those who struggle to work, to care both for children and elderly relatives, and to battle on with their activism in political parties and unions are more knackered than most.

Yet on Saturday, at a central London university, there was precious little fatigue as delegates arrived for the Women’s Liberation 2020 conference.

Nearly 1,000 women, and a few men, packed out University College London, for a day of inspiring speakers, practical sessions and a vast amount of shared expertise and experience. (continues)

In the packed hall, Pragna Patel, co-founder of Southall Black Sisters, helped kick-start the day, telling the crowd: “What a hopeful moment in history we have reached as feminists — and I know you’re thinking ‘what is she talking about’?”

Her optimism sprung, she went on, “from the fact that, all over the world, women are leading an unmistakably secular resistance against tyranny, misogyny and oppression. There is a new kind of feminism stirring in the air … women are on the rise, demanding a new kind of feminist citizenship, based not on identity but political values.

“It is exciting because it feels different … waves of ordinary, marginalised and poor women are rising up to demand economic equality and justice, and to prevent their leaders from ripping up well-crafted constitutions born out of long and painful struggles for freedom.”

On the minus side, said Patel, “we haven’t yet found a way of getting rid of the cul-de-sac of identity politics [which] muzzles voices of dissent from within. If we are not careful, we will find ourselves sliding towards regressive politics, that reinvigorates patriarchy and inequality whilst appearing to be progressive.” (continues)

Journalist and campaigner Julie Bindel addressed particularly younger women at the event, “for whom things are hellish right now, but also full of possibilities.

“There are some lessons we can take from the past, but we must not hark back to the past. We must move on, as any political movement must.”

This was not a revival per se, she said: “We have always had a women’s movement. But we’ve seen that, in the past couple of decades, young women who would describe themselves as feminists got dragged into the neoliberal politics of the individual, where they dismiss any necessity of collectivism, where they would not have it that focusing on ridiculous, meaningless identities would get them absolutely nowhere.

“Identity politics, without the politics, is what we’ve got now.”

Closing the conference was WPUK co-founder Kiri Tunks, paying tribute to staff at UCL, “for demonstrating a commitment to academic debate and women’s rights.”

WPUK had been formed fairly recently, she said, “and we know that there are many groups and many individuals who have been campaigning for far longer than us, and we want to thank you for what you have done and what you continue to do.

“This conference is not the first word, or the last word, or the only word. Think back to wins of the late ’60 and ’70s, the dramatic changes to women’s education, economic independence, aspirations for our lives and our relationships. These things are now just not under threat, many have already been rolled back. We are alert to these threats and we ready to step up to defend what has been won and to fight for more.

“We are going to need all your strength and fire in the days to come. It’s down to all of us. This is the movement; we are the movement — let’s move.”
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/womens-liberation-bursts-back-scene-0

womansplaceuk.org/conference-womens-liberation-2020/

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