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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Suzanne Moore - naming and shaming

185 replies

Haworthia · 18/03/2020 23:57

Suzanne Moore is naming and shaming her Guardian colleagues/friends who signed the letter condemning her column. She’s obviously feeling completely betrayed but I’m worried this is going to backfire for her. Tell you what - massive balls though.

OP posts:
FrankieManca · 20/03/2020 16:00

@HebeMunsnet Can you clarify the personal attacks thing?

I know personal attacks on other posters are deleted, but opinions on public figures? The Harry and Meghan threads are full of attacks on H&M, for example! Is this because they thought they were signing in secret?

Binterested · 20/03/2020 16:25

Commenting on someone’s journalistic integrity when they sign a letter anonymously to silence a fellow journalist is not a personal attack. If I said Simon Hattenstone has an ugly face (for the avoidance of doubt I’ve never seen him) that would be unpleasant and unnecessary. I see nothing on this thread like that.

Strangerthantruth · 20/03/2020 16:42

Slightly off track but look.. JK Rowling has set up open access for teachers to read to kids
www.jkrowling.com/j-k-rowling-grants-open-licence-for-teachers-during-covid-19-outbreak/

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1241018513151664128

BovaryX · 20/03/2020 17:25

To be fair, if all you had to go on was the letter, and took it at face value that your newspaper had been publishing vile transphobic slurs (and hadn't actually seen them yourself), you would probably have signed it too

Hmm. Isn't this quite extraordinary? These are journalists writing in an allegedly serious newspaper. Yet we are supposed to believe that they just sign their name to any petition with zero clue as to its purpose? It's interesting, isn't it? How journalists and politicians, like Lisa Nandy, will deny they knew what they were signing five minutes after pledging their signature. It really is laughable.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 20/03/2020 17:52

In light of Marina Hyde NOT signing the letter, I thought it might be interesting to consider that in the context of the the final paragraph of this (absolute belter of a) column amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/boris-johnson-covid-19-prime-minister-brexit?

Which is about Boris and Coronavirus, but it reads:
Time and again this week I have been reminded of that great line from last year’s Chernobyl drama series. “When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid.”

Interesting, huh.

Freespeecher · 20/03/2020 17:56

People have already mentioned Guardian US signatories but I'd forgotten just how woke the Guardian in Australia is. Quite a few Aussie signatories on the list.

R0wantrees · 20/03/2020 18:10

Australian Guardian employed H. Mouncey to write articles.

Demonstrating disregard for safety and fairness in women's sports.
Maybe simply disregard for women's sport?

2018 by Hannah Mouncey for The Guardian:
"AFL's trans participation policy sets a dangerous precedent for women

With weight being used as a measure for exclusion, women are yet again being body-shamed
(extract)
ate last week, the AFL released its long-awaited policy on transgender participation in Australian rules football. In it are a set of requirements trans women need to follow if they aim to play at AFLW level. These include having your testosterone below a certain level for two years, which I have no problem with, as well as the requirement that trans women undertake number of physical tests designed to ascertain if they have an advantage over cis women playing AFLW – the presumption being that this is because they are trans.

The reasons I’m critical of the AFL’s policy are not the reasons people may assume. Essentially, every physical requirement the policy asks me to meet I will. I know what I can do, and I know how I compare overall. Yet, there are still a number of issues surrounding how the policy is applied.

It is not yet clear, for example, if the data being used by the AFL to compare cis and trans women can be independently verified. Nor can we be sure the clubs have accurately reported their data. The question that has been answered by the AFL, however, is that if a trans athlete and a non-trans athlete were both to perform above average on their testing regime, the trans athlete would be excluded from AFLW, but the cis athlete wouldn’t. Not very consistent, or fair." (continues)

My biggest concern is the fact that weight is being used as one of the key physical measures for possible exclusion. Forget the fact that in a game that has such an emphasis on endurance and speed, being heavy is not necessarily an advantage and think about the message it sends to women and girls about their bodies: if you’re too big, you can’t play. That is incredibly dangerous and backward.

It is an especially dangerous message for girls and teenagers (trans or not) who may not understand the difference between fat or muscle: they will simply get the message that being bigger is bad. If you don’t fit a certain stereotype, or possess a certain body shape, that’s bad. This is a message constantly reinforced through all types of media and the last place it needs to be coming from is sporting organisations: the very people who are currently engaged in a conscious push to increase physical activity for women and girls, which .

The AFL should know better, as a number of its own female playing cohort – including Western Bulldogs captain Katie Brennan – have come out since the AFLW started to speak about their own prior issues with eating disorders." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/profile/hannah-mouncey

FrancesHaHa · 20/03/2020 18:33

I'm not actually that surprised by Simon Hatterstone. He once wrote an article about Paul Gasgoine where he blamed Gazza's domestic violence towards his wife on his drinking. I wrote a letter which to be fair they did publish explaining that alcohol doesn't cause violence against women. . .

franke · 20/03/2020 18:39

@tobee 😊

@sophoclesthefox I think your options 1 and 3 are depressingly common. People just follow (what they think is) the herd. It reminds me of the actors who signed the petition in favour of Polanski a few years back and then had to do an abrupt reverse ferret when they realised they had actually publicly supported a man who had openly admitted to raping and sodomising a child.

BritishHorrorStory · 20/03/2020 19:29

@BovaryX

Hmm. Isn't this quite extraordinary? These are journalists writing in an allegedly serious newspaper. Yet we are supposed to believe that they just sign their name to any petition with zero clue as to its purpose? It's interesting, isn't it? How journalists and politicians, like Lisa Nandy, will deny they knew what they were signing five minutes after pledging their signature. It really is laughable.

PAEDOGEDDEN!

Binterested · 20/03/2020 19:31

Emma Thompson signed the Polanski letter. I immediately understood she was a tribalist not a thinker.

franke · 20/03/2020 19:43

Yes, she withdrew when a young student took her side and gently explained everything to her. Natalie Portman also signed and then expressed her regret later.

Helmetbymidnight · 20/03/2020 19:52

So it looks like the signatories have gone for one of four options: I didn’t read it properly (so I’m slipshod and don’t research things, and can be easily compelled to sign any old bumwash); I expected it to be kept anonymous (so I’m a backstabber and a weasel and I don’t own my actions); I didn’t understand the implications of what I was signing (so I’m a bit dim), or lastly, owning it and saying “yes, I stand by this” (so I’m a bully and don’t think a newspaper should publish opinions that differ from my own).

Yy, and it was the same with the Labour Party and the transpledge. signing it revealed them ALL to be both slipshod (will sign/do anything put in front of them - a bit like when those MPs were tricked into fighting a drug called 'Cake') and desperately dim. And I can't understand how anyone can respect these politicians and journos anymore. It's not normal to be that slipshod and dim.

Floisme · 20/03/2020 19:53

I can be more forgiving of actors than I am of journalists - asking questions is their fucking job.

Binterested · 20/03/2020 20:10

True although those of the ET variety trade on a sort of intellectual veneer which they clearly do not deserve. See also Susan Sarandon who has a reputation for being part of the liberal intelligentsia which seems to be based on nothing more than her being slightly more intelligent than your average Hollywood star (a very low bar). And in any case these days membership of the liberal intelligentsia is hardly a mark of quality given that the liberal project hasbrought us the non-binary balony and other assorted bullshit.

R0wantrees · 20/03/2020 20:34

2015 Interesting panel discussion about how media were lobbied (Trans Media Watch/ IPSO etc)

"Paris Lees, Dr Kate Stone, Owen Jones, Freddie McConnell Peter Tatchell, Munroe Bergdorf and Jake Graf discuss the main issues facing the trans community today, and what we all need to do to ensure we live harmoniously and happily as one society. "

The Guardian Live event took place at Amnesty International on 4 June 2015.

LadyQuarantinaPluckington · 20/03/2020 20:51

I can be more forgiving of actors than I am of journalists - asking questions is their fucking job.

I never give one shiny shit about the opinion of an actor, they are no more or less capable of wisdom than any other person. Their job is to produce pretend emotions, this is no reason to expect authoritative decisions from them.

But yes, it is the job description of a journalist to ask questions, to research, fact check and be coherent.

You read so much output from 'journalists' these days and it's just c&p and screenshots of tweets. Or puff pieces that might as well be advertisements like the shit Ben Hunte produces.

BritishHorrorStory · 20/03/2020 21:37

You read so much output from 'journalists' these days and it's just c&p and screenshots of tweets

Agreed. Articles are now mainly:

Twitter in meltdown over xxxx shock.

Three screenshots of tweets, that normally have only 3 or four likes each.

Three paragraphs with the tweets previously screenshot typed out.

And, depending on which media, link it to:

Brexit (The Guardian)
Immigrants (The daily Mail)
Dog walker that tried to break up a fight between two angry geese (Any local newspaper)
Aliens (The daily star)

Binterested · 20/03/2020 22:08

Transwoman does thing that people have been doing for millennia but does it while being brave and stunning so gets own BBC series (Ben Hunte BBC)

DidoLamenting · 21/03/2020 01:33

Yes, she withdrew when a young student took her side and gently explained everything to her. Natalie Portman also signed and then expressed her regret later

Meryl Streep's support for Polanski saved for all eternity. I don't think she has ever retracted it.

MoleSmokes · 21/03/2020 01:47

As an aside - can't say this often enough, thank you R0wantrees for all your cross-referencing and reminders of previously posted content that has disappeared into magnificent maw of Mumsnet!! Smile

ps. This was such a funny tweet I couldn't resist it!

It was just the picture - no text Grin

twitter.com/jammywalter7/status/1240633851090780162

Suzanne Moore - naming and shaming
StrangeLookingParasite · 21/03/2020 02:25

Australian Guardian employed H. Mouncey to write articles.

Oh for fucking fuck's sake.

SophocIestheFox · 21/03/2020 07:04

No, no, that Mouncey article was great- I know at least two previously oblivious blokes who read it and their immediate reaction was “what the fuck? No!”. We need Mouncey making appearances on every conceivable platform, along with lots and lots of photos showing Mouncey’s athletic figure next to women. It’s great at demonstrating the physical reality when language isn’t allowed to do so.

midclegs · 21/03/2020 08:31

I'm reading The Guardian's trans rights civil war rumbles on via the Spectator app app.spectator.co.uk/2020/03/21/the-guardians-trans-rights-civil-war-rumbles-on/content.html

Winesalot · 21/03/2020 08:41

Yeah. That AFL article is a wonderful example of them using mental illness and positive body image to further shut down debate. While missing the point that with these people competing in sports adds even more pressure to girls and women to ‘just be better’ ...... you know, to overcome male privelege.

Feels like I have travelled back four decades in one reading. Each of their articles must raise so many questions about this.

Mouncey is a prized drongo to write this trope.