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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transphobic DD.

229 replies

Viennabreathes · 09/03/2020 21:42

I’m fuming as I type this so I apologise in advance for typos/mistakes.

DD3 came home from school today a bit flustered. I’ve got out of her that her and some friends were discussing trans rights/issues in Ethics today (it’s a compulsory class they take but not an actual GCSE so it isn’t too structured and the teacher lets them debate whatever they see fit if it’s in a controlled manner).

One of DD’s friends said if she was a rape or domestic violence victim she wouldn’t feel comfortable having to share a prison cell or
changing room with a trans woman. A girl in their class immediately stood up and shouted at DD’s friend, calling her a transphobe and telling her that she’s ‘uneducated and completely misinformed’.

DD stood up for her friend and this led into a bit of a debate, from what DD and her HOY have told me, DD said the following:
-‘If you have a penis, you’re a man. It’s simple’
-‘Can you be quiet for a second and let someone else get a word in? You keep interrupting and calling us transphobic to shut us down as you can’t bear us having different opinions’

I got an email from DD’s Head of Year today saying that she has an hour detention next Monday due to an ‘incident’ which happened in this lesson today.

DD was honest with me. This same girl called her a ‘cis girl with no fucking brain cells’, to which DD replied, ‘I’m a girl, not a fucking cis girl. If you think people can identify as trans, I identify as a woman. Not a cis woman.’

Yes DD swore. But after being spoken over and provoked for 30 minutes.

I don’t see why she is in this much trouble and she tells me when the Head of Year spoke to them both, she was forced to apologise to the other girl (if she didn’t, she would have been kept out of lessons with this girl until she did) etc.

My child is not transphobic and frankly, I agree with most of what she said.

AIBU to email her HoY and book a meeting to discuss and support my DD? DH thinks I am overreacting.

OP posts:
PondLover · 10/03/2020 05:51

Well, feel free to express, with evidence, why you dissent from any views expressed on this thread, @mouldy.

Datun · 10/03/2020 06:00

wellbehavedwomen

That is a fantastic post. One of the most comprehensive I've ever seen. An entire education in one post.

Brilliant stuff.

Datun · 10/03/2020 06:05

mouldy

Are you implying the OP isn't telling the truth? We get that a lot - people not telling the truth and also people thinking they're not when they are.

It doesn't matter either way. Discussions and support around this issue are massively beneficial because these scenario are happening everywhere.

YouJustDoYou · 10/03/2020 06:23

I'm guessing mouldy either read that excellent paragraph of education from wellbehaved, realised they have absolutely zero comeback or intelligent addition for discussion, or, and I think this is more likely, havent read the thread at all, and saw this as another opportunity to bleat out "you Just hate trans!!!!"

Firelink · 10/03/2020 06:26

Stunning and brave

FairyBatman · 10/03/2020 06:27

If the detention is for swearing then fair enough, but they should both get one and it should be according to the behaviour policy.

I would also make a point that the other girl swore first and swore at your daughter, while your daughters swearing, whilst not acceptable was also not personal.

For the other girl to have accused your daughter of bullying is ridiculous, holding a different opinion to someone have having a debate, in what sounds very much like a debate class, in no way constitutes bullying.

I’d also want to know why the debate wasn’t shut down at the point that the first child swore. The teacher has clearly lost control of chairing the debate fairly and impartially by that point if swearing and personal insults like “with no fucking brain cells” were being thrown around.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 10/03/2020 06:35

That's some sharp debating skills you've got there, mouldy. Yes. It is indeed gullible to believe in biological fact. 🙄

BringbackLang · 10/03/2020 06:36

Was the other girl asked to apologise to your daughter?

NearlyGranny · 10/03/2020 06:47

What a contrast we see in this thread: on the one hand, wellbehavedwomen's well-reasoned, fact-jammed exposition, quickly followed by mouldy's fingers-in-the-ears, abusive, two sentence blurt which amounts to no more than "Ner ner ni ner ner, you are all stupid and you hate us!"

I'm always heartened at the fairness and lack of ill-feeling evidenced gender critical feminists9 on this forum. I guess it's another example of 'When they go low, we go high.'

Catcalling was never a woman thing, anyway.

lynzpynz · 10/03/2020 06:51

@Silvergreen that's the first time anyone's ever suggested anything I could say was remotely sensible or well measured haha 😂!!

SonEtLumiere · 10/03/2020 06:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 10/03/2020 07:04

I don’t see why she should be in detention at all- she was repeating the words of the other girl.

I would insist that the other girl has detention for using insulting, prejudicial and inaccurate words such as ‘cis’ and for swearing at your daughter.

My school teacher friend advises that to make the school take your point more seriously - both parents - where possible - should go in.

Well done that girl!

ahumanfemale · 10/03/2020 07:20

OP what an awesome daughter you've raised! I hope she's reading this thread over your shoulder!!

And awellbehavedwoman - a great post that needs publicising!

ChattyLion · 10/03/2020 07:23

I thought your daughter’s ‘well I identify as a woman’ comment was an excellent comeback and it hoist the other student’s argument by its own petard, exposing the misogyny and the authoritarianism of their argument so effectively. Very clever.

Nobody is condoning swearing in school but your DD didn’t start it. Standard punishment only for both kids for that. Any apologies should have been required of both, although as PP have said your DD did not swear ‘at’ the other student to insult them, although she got an ad hominem from the other student.

Your DD swearily disagreed with an idea which is materially different from denigrating any person using swearing, even though you have reminded her that all swearing is inappropriate for school etc etc.

I would agree with PP’s safeguarding concern raised though. It’s important to welcome the school debating this issue in an Ethics class, this issue needs debate as there is a full blown culture war going on against women right now.

But the idea that the school might allow kids to be shut down by being insulted and sworn at if they question the dogma of genderism in front of their peers suggests the school do not understand the safeguarding risks to young people from this political idealogy and the risks and consequences for many of the young people who adhere to it.
Have they not seen Keira Bell’s ongoing court case? The letters from concerned doctors to the BMJ about the lack of evidence for the treatment of children in the NHS GIDs clinics? Dangerous binders being sent out to kids in the post by that charity in Manchester without parents consent? Concerns about lack of good safeguarding practice for protecting young people in some LGBT support groups for young people in the UK? Concerns about ostracism when kids detransition? or if they try to enforce their own personal sexual consent boundaries by saying ‘no’ to potential dates on the basis the prospective date is not of the sex that the individual is attracted to. Then the individual gets peer critique and ostracism for being ‘transphobic’, which for some young people will be enough pressure to cause them to compromise on their own consent. Are we really condoning that climate for children? Doesn’t safeguarding apply to call children, however they or the adults around them ‘identify’ their gender?

All of these issues have been posted about on here. Will the school be asking Charlie Evans’ detransition advocacy Network to Skype in for a lesson about that? (I don’t know if that’s possible or not but you get the drift.)

Don’t schools have a duty to safeguard kids against political extremism? Like with the ‘Prevent’ duty? schools should recognise that much of the movement behind this politics IS politically extremist.

Women have been punched to the ground at speakers’ corner then had to observe their attacker’s choice of pronouns in court and also have the fine for the attack reduced if they do not respect their attacker’s pronouns, women have meeting venues credibly bomb-threatened and cancelled so that they can’t talk about their own rights, and even if they do manage to get a meeting venue (labour fringe 2019) they get people trying to kick and smash in the windows. There are zero examples of this coming from women towards any trans person or organisation that represents them.

That’s not to mention losing women work, kicking them out of political parties, and expecting them to put up with rape and death threats on social media if they dare to express a pro woman opinion. There are the private blacklists of academics circulating on social media and threats made by party activists of deliberate data breaches against gender critical women’s data.

In that sense, this issue is not a debate. It’s just a sustained attack on women’s rights to name themselves, to retain their own single-sex spaces and opportunities and to speak freely in society.

None of those things infringe on anyone’s else’s rights unless you consider that the built-in rights everyone else include the right to take away from women’s rights.

^ That attitude of ‘women being less than other humans’ is SEXIST. We should all be permitted to object to sexism freely, whatever age we are. (But we accept, not with swearing if in school time Grin)

Good luck! I’m so proud of your daughter, you must be unbelievably proud of her. Even more importantly, you must be relieved for her that she’s understood all of this so well and is drawing up healthy boundaries for herself and supporting her friends who are doing that. It will stand her in such good stead around all the political authoritarianism and consent and sexism issues that she will encounter as she grows up.

whattheactual123 · 10/03/2020 07:25

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ChattyLion · 10/03/2020 07:30

wellbehaved I had not RTFT. your post is comprehensive and awesome. Is it OK to borrow some bits of it for letter writing in future?

Lamahaha · 10/03/2020 07:32

@whattheactual123: A word is missing. "Your transphobic.... (what)?"

I'm so relieved that the word "transphobic" is so toothless now due to overuse and wrond use. Nobody cares any more about being labelled transphobic.

You have a brilliant daughter, OP. Flowers

ChattyLion · 10/03/2020 07:32

wellbehaved in fact given it would be a shame to lose all those amazing links would you consider publishing it somewhere like Medium?

mostlydrinkstea · 10/03/2020 07:38

If this class had been taught by someone who understood the basics of ethics there could be some interesting and better structured conversations.

The two most popular secular theories are utilitarianism and autonomy.

Utilitarianism- the greatest good for the greatest number. The number of trans people are very small. Women are 50% of the population. Simples.

Autonomy. My need, desire, want to do what I want to is the decision maker. If I want to refuse medical treatment that will be respected by the medical profession if I have capacity. Autonomy leads to all sorts of discussions about conflicting rights. Which is where this discussion should have gone.

Where many ethical discussions in this area go in this area is consequentialism. If I do this something else will happen. If I debate the trans issue on the basis off the principal of autonomy then someone's feelings get hurt and as they have decided that hurt feelings trump autonomy I am silenced. Chuck in men deciding that their feeling are more important than women and there is the patriarchy exposed for what it is. Entitlement.

If you actually use the tools of ethics it makes the whole thing much easier to get to the underlying issue. There are very few teachers who understand this stuff. Pity.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 10/03/2020 07:43

Wellbehavedwoman's post is so excellent the usual watchers will no doubt try and scupper this thread. Can the whole thing get cut and pasted somewhere else for posterity?

BringbackLang · 10/03/2020 07:43

@whattheactual123 It's you're not your. Just saying Wink

LaneBoy · 10/03/2020 07:44

The entire world needs to read that post by @wellbehavedwomen

BringbackLang · 10/03/2020 07:45

Op i'm proud of your daughter and I don't even know her. It gives me hope for the future.

SarahInAccounts · 10/03/2020 07:46

She's done nothing to merit detention. She shouldn't have been forced to apologise.

Refuse permission for the detention.

InflagranteDelicto · 10/03/2020 07:49

Your daughter is amazing. In addition there's some fantastic posts on here, Wellbehavedwoman for one.

Hoping your meeting with the hoy is productive.