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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transphobic DD.

229 replies

Viennabreathes · 09/03/2020 21:42

I’m fuming as I type this so I apologise in advance for typos/mistakes.

DD3 came home from school today a bit flustered. I’ve got out of her that her and some friends were discussing trans rights/issues in Ethics today (it’s a compulsory class they take but not an actual GCSE so it isn’t too structured and the teacher lets them debate whatever they see fit if it’s in a controlled manner).

One of DD’s friends said if she was a rape or domestic violence victim she wouldn’t feel comfortable having to share a prison cell or
changing room with a trans woman. A girl in their class immediately stood up and shouted at DD’s friend, calling her a transphobe and telling her that she’s ‘uneducated and completely misinformed’.

DD stood up for her friend and this led into a bit of a debate, from what DD and her HOY have told me, DD said the following:
-‘If you have a penis, you’re a man. It’s simple’
-‘Can you be quiet for a second and let someone else get a word in? You keep interrupting and calling us transphobic to shut us down as you can’t bear us having different opinions’

I got an email from DD’s Head of Year today saying that she has an hour detention next Monday due to an ‘incident’ which happened in this lesson today.

DD was honest with me. This same girl called her a ‘cis girl with no fucking brain cells’, to which DD replied, ‘I’m a girl, not a fucking cis girl. If you think people can identify as trans, I identify as a woman. Not a cis woman.’

Yes DD swore. But after being spoken over and provoked for 30 minutes.

I don’t see why she is in this much trouble and she tells me when the Head of Year spoke to them both, she was forced to apologise to the other girl (if she didn’t, she would have been kept out of lessons with this girl until she did) etc.

My child is not transphobic and frankly, I agree with most of what she said.

AIBU to email her HoY and book a meeting to discuss and support my DD? DH thinks I am overreacting.

OP posts:
titchy · 09/03/2020 22:44

*female prison/changing room...

theflushedzebra · 09/03/2020 22:47

Your DD sounds awesome - it's actually really brave to tell the truth in these situations - when you're being called transphobic and uneducated. She's strong willed, and knows her own mind. Well done, OP - great job bringing her up Star

It's worrying though - the young lad in Scotland who was expelled in that "only 2 genders" debacle. Schools have been fed a load of propaganda on the topic of trans ideology and gender - if you're going to fight this, go in armed with information. Transgender Trend, Women's Place, Fair Play For Women, Safe Schools Alliance, all have great resources.

Silvergreen · 09/03/2020 22:50

lynzpynz - away with your sensible and measured response to this sensitive topic 😉

PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg · 09/03/2020 22:51

Your daughter rocks.

Teacher here. I would arrange a meeting with the HOY. I'd accept that dd should be sanctioned - in line with school policy on swearing & consistently with any other sweary pupil.

Then I'd go full mediaeval whoopass on the school for any suggestion your child should be sanctioned for expressing entirely legitimate opinions in a debate session, led by a teacher in an appropriate forum. Your daughter appears to have said nothing that hasn't been perfectly fairly said in the media - these ARE valid concerns & opinions to hold. I completely agree with her, as you do, but with school I'd just hold the line that she has expressed completely reasonable opinions in a forum which was set up for her to do so, & should absolutely not be punished for this.

If the school is unable to facilitate discussion around this subject then they shouldn't make it a lesson topic.

I suspect the teacher is probably being given a hard time behind the scenes by management for having let things get so heated, so I'd save my ire for senior leadership rather than the unfortunate teacher...

StampMc · 09/03/2020 22:54

Blair white being at risk in prison is

A. not necessarily true
B. Doesn’t mean other men aren’t at risk in prison. Prison is notoriously dangerous
C. Doesn’t mean men can become women.
D. Not women’s mess to clean up
E. The fault and the responsibility of men
F. Doesn’t negate the risk to women of making women’s prisons mixed sex
G. A really crap argument for binning off women’s sex based rights

theflushedzebra · 09/03/2020 22:59

It would be worth pointing out:

a) According to your OP, both girls swore - so both should be sanctioned equally for that.

b) If they're going to hold debating sessions, one side should not be suppressed - a debate isn't a debate if only one side is allowed to be heard!

Babdoc · 09/03/2020 23:09

I wouldn’t give your DD a detention. I’d give her a high five, a hug and a medal.
The future of the Women’s Movement is in good hands!

Brokenness · 09/03/2020 23:19

I would not agree that both girl are equally guilty of swearing. Although they both used the same swear word, only one of them used it as part of a personal insult. Context matters.

nettie434 · 09/03/2020 23:20

a ‘cis girl with no fucking brain cells’

Now that’s a way to talk. If your daughter has to have a detention, then so should the other girl for speaking in such a disrespectful way.

Your daughter was amazing to stand up for her friend and her principles. Wonder if this will be one of the Feminist Chat threads she reads!

TheHagOnTheHill · 09/03/2020 23:25

Blair White trans youtuber not a threat to women,Karen White intact male who identified as a woman,dangerous preditor of women and children convicted of being a threat to women.
Somehow the people in charge of prisons can't see the difference.

R0wantrees · 09/03/2020 23:27

Professor Selina Todd (Oxford, Modern History) speech tonight at Labour Women's Pledge

"We are the movement and we are going forward with or without you"

"are you going to disappear down the rabbit hole of cowardice?" asks
Labour leadership. "because we - Labour women - are not going away"

on political leaders (& teachers?)
"I don't think it is brave for them to speak up for our democratic rights - it's in the job description."

Craftycorvid · 09/03/2020 23:35

I’d challenge this with school purely and simply because we NEED debate and we need to have young people who can debate articulately and from a well-informed standpoint (and I do mean from all points of view). What’s wrong is that whoever was supposedly chairing this debate clearly didn’t manage the contributions well - if there were people shouting over one another that’s a row not a debate. It’s downright dangerous if name-calling or the use of certain words has the power to silence someone and your daughter shouldn’t be punished for standing up for herself. She has the right to ask not to be labelled as ‘cis’ if she doesn’t like or accept the term.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 09/03/2020 23:38

I would explode with pride! Unless the other girl is being punished for swearing too then something sinister is going on. All advice as above about using the resources of transgendertrend & sSA.

The next generation of the witches they couldn’t burn is here - there are more of us than you think Grin

wibdib · 09/03/2020 23:43

Your dd is awesome to step up like that to support her friend.

Curious as to whether or not she swore several times or more or just in response to the girl that called her a fucking cis girl to say that she was not a fucking cis girl, in which case I would argue that in an ethics/debating situation she shouldn’t be punished for repeating what somebody said she was to negate it (given that words matter and particularlybin this sort of debate - albeit only valid in that instance not if she swore more.

Did the other girl have to apologise to you dd or was it just one way with dd apologising? If the latter I would be doubly furious and start by insisting that the other girl needed to apologise to dd for the transphobic, misogynistic homophobic unscientific inaccurate barracking and harassment she subjected your dd to.

Agree with asking exactly what your dd said that was factually incorrect and if the can’t, won’t or don’t then I would ask for written confirmation of the facts that she needs for any biology exams and guarantees that she won’t be punished for being factually accurate.

I would also throw a curveball in and put in a safeguarding complaint that somebody with a dangerous transactivist viewpoint was allowed to get into such a long argument without the teacher stepping in to show how dangerous and misguided that viewpoint is, particulary to women.

Would definitely find out if they have read the invisible women book to understand precisely how women are treated badly and isadvantaged as a result of their sex.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 10/03/2020 00:03

Requiring your child to apologize to the child who was bullying her, under threat of being denied admission to the class, teaches the entire class a lesson.
It exposes a serious problem among the adults in authority over the children.

bettybeans · 10/03/2020 00:17

I would find out what exactly the detention is for.... is it for swearing (in which case they should surely both be punished?) or is it for her position on this issue?

Scrapper142 · 10/03/2020 00:57

Your daughter is a hero. I'm a grown-ass women who wouldn't have said what she did in a work situation for fear of the consequences. There's something is the last few weeks that feels like the tide is turning and I'm growing in confidence to say what needs to be said. Your daughter is inspiring

Goosefoot · 10/03/2020 01:29

I would look for more information from the school. It may be the fact of not only the swearing but the general attitude of the whole discussion that has resulted in the detention. If both girls are being punished I think I would be ok with that under the circumstances. Not because your daughter is wrong but because in the end we have to stay within certain bounds when we speak and calling people things is outside of that. The detention might be a bit over the top but not enough to be harmful.

I would query why the teacher didn't keep more control of the discussion though.

Rosehip345 · 10/03/2020 02:15

Yes I’d want to speak to HOY. If they’re both being kept in detention for swearing then fair enough but otherwise it seems it’s more because your DDs point of view is not the PC one.
I’d also want to know how the teacher chairing the debate allowed it to become heated enough to be issuing detentions?

FoldyRoll · 10/03/2020 04:08

Did the other girl have to apologise to your daughter? If not, I'd want to know why your dd's "crime" is more serious than the other girl's, given that she was the first to swear.

wellbehavedwomen · 10/03/2020 04:49

@Zoecarter did you know that 80% of transwomen have no medical intervention at all - no drugs, no surgery? They are literally male people, raised as male, who say they subjectively believe that they are female. That's it. All that is required. And no, transwomen are not more likely to be murdered than anyone else. They're half as likely, in fact. The suicide stat is bullshit, too - it was based on just 27 kids, from a self-selected sample, via an online survey for a prize. Nothing stopped anyone entering twice, it was anonymous, without probability weighting - so data was worthless. Yet it's endlessly cited.) GIDS at Tavistock say that the suicide rates are similar to all kids in contact with CAMHS, and claiming otherwise harms resilience.

Have you ever considered what it could do to a woman fleeing male violence, to encounter a male in that shelter? Can I ask you to read what a women's refuge provider had to say, in a speech to the Scottish Parliament on this?

Did you know that 1 in 50 males in prison now self-ID as trans according to Ministry of Justice figures? If it's so dangerous, why are so many choosing to come out when in jail?

Were you aware that according to Rhona Hotchkiss, Scottish MP and former women's prison governor, now have more transwomen sex offenders in prison than females?

Were you aware that 95% of prisoners are men, and 5% women? That most women in prison are there for financial crime, and most men in for violent offending? Were you aware that while men commit 98% of sex offences, more than 99% of prisoners in for sex offending are male (because they also commit more serious crimes)? Were you aware that even back in 2016, when there were only 126 openly transwomen in prison, 60 were sex offenders? There are around 200,000 transwomen in the country, it is believed. At the same time, there were only 128 women in for sex offences, altogether, from a population of 32 million... and 13500 men.

If transwomen commit offences, specifically sex offences, at standard male rates, why are they women? Why should women locked in prison be forced to live alongside a rapist, as soon as that rapist says, "I'm a woman"? Are you willing to be locked into a prison cell with a male rapist because of that? If not, why not? And if not, are you saying other women should have to? Are you aware that women have already been raped, in several countries, because of this policy? Why don't you think that women prisoners should be the ones to decide that - and nobody else?

What about a women's shelter? Did you know that a woman has been made to leave a shelter because, as a rape survivor, she couldn't sleep in a room with a strange male, however he identified? Are you aware that a man has used self-ID to access a women's shelter where he sexually assaulted vulnerable women? Are you aware that a rape relief shelter in Canada has lost all public funding for insisting they remain women only, and have had dead rats nailed to their door?

Are you aware that a leading researcher into violence and victimisation against women has, alongside concern for trans people, been extremely clear that there are massive ways in which access to women in vulnerable situations can be exploited? Are you aware that despite just 30% of changing facilities in sports centres in this country being mixed sex, 90% of sexual assaults have happened in them - yet unisex facilities are being constantly pushed, including in schools, to make trans and non-binary kids more comfortable (instead of increasing third space provision)?

Are you aware that women with our views are threatened with violent death, rape, and mutilation, almost as a commonplace? Are you okay with that? Are you okay with women being told to on/suck my dick" when they express these views? Why are rape threats okay with you when the person making them says they're a woman with a penis?

All of that hate is from transactivists, aimed at women with our views. I invite you to find anything remotely equivalent here, or indeed anywhere else. I've not managed to. And it's notable that the hate is not aimed at transphobic, hateful, aggressive men. It's aimed at women. Us, in fact.

Transwomen certainly pose no more threat to women than any other biologically male person does, and transmen pose almost no threat to anyone (which is why you'll be hard pushed to find a feminist with a strong opinion, as long as the transitioner is an adult. Because that's none of our business - nobody else's rights are engaged.) But biology can't change just because the possessor of that biology wants it to, and nor does risk.

That's before you even get into the issue of how to keep out predatory men who aren't trans, but want to access women, if you say that anyone who identifies as a woman can use communal changing/showering areas at will. A man exposing himself in a park commits a crime. A man doing so in a communal area, where you're also naked, who's told the reception staff he ID's as a woman, hasn't.

Sport is another huge area. Martina Navratilova was trained by a transwoman. She's supported transwomen all her life. What she doesn't support is bullying lesbians into having sex with 'lesbian transwomen' (aka as heterosexual males) or males, with a huge physical advantage, competing against women in sports. Which is happening, and which is grossly unfair.

Did you know women with these views can be fired, and have no recourse? That what I am typing here risked, until less than a month ago, someone reporting me to the police for a hate crime non-crime, because all that is required is for someone to assert that they subjectively think that it's hateful speech? A High Court judge said the effect of the police's behaviour to a man, “because of his political opinions must not be underestimated. To do so would be to undervalue a cardinal democratic freedom. In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society.”

Are you aware that dozens of clinicians have resigned from the Tavistock over their failings, including the Governor? Who later wrote a damning article, setting out to examine why a huge flood of girls, at least half of whom are probably autistic (a third actually diagnosed, when girls are massively underdiagnised), and others who may be anorexic, or survivors of trauma, are seeking to alter their bodies in ways that they feel will solve their problems? Are you aware that it's pretty much normal for autistic girls to feel wrong, and uncomfortable in their own bodies; that most outgrow it - and that autistic girls are likelier to be gay? That internalised homophobia can lead children to want to be the opposite sex? Are you aware that puberty blockers result in 100% transitioning, when between 80-90% will settle into birth sex after puberty? Did you know hormone blockers may cause sterility, a large IQ drop, bone density loss, and more?

British Medical Journal:

Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition.

It is often said that the use of puberty blockers in children is completely safe and irreversible. This claim however has never been tested in long term studies and its use for gender dysphoria remains experimental. Questions still remain about long term health concerns and the effect on the natural trajectory of the development of gender identity. Ethical questions remain about the capacity of children to consent to a treatment which blocks their natural development at puberty, especially given the evidence that this locks them into a medical pathway resulting in sterility and potential loss of sexual function.

Keira Bell, a detransitioning woman, is seeking Judicial Review of all of this, because she wants to protect other troubled young girls from her own childhood treatment, that led to a cascade of interventions, many irreversible.

Did you know that the head of Mermaids, the leading charity for gender non-conforming kids, took her child to Thailand so they could have their testicles and penis removed and cosmetic women's organs constructed on their sixteenth birthday, which was the earliest it could be performed - surgery against the law here at that age, and now against the law in Thailand, too? We don't let kids that age get tattoos, drink alcohol or use sunbed salons. Yet this is the person advising on best practice for gender nonconforming children? Mermaids have advised LAs and schools on how to treat children. A judicial review is underway on that, too.

Why must we accept smear tests from any male who feels they have a woman's gender identity - what does that even mean? And yes, that is happening; a rape survivor who asked for a biological woman for her intimate care found that letter being used to train hospital staff on unacceptable bigotry. And a woman in a psych ward, of men in her psychosis, was deemed transphobic on her notes for refusing to accept reassurances that a transwoman was a woman. Women in psych hospitals have solid cause to fear men.

Innate gender identity is a belief system. There's no evidence one exists; it's the equivalent of a soul. I respect all faiths. Bhuddists, Christians, Jews, Muslims. But if a sect suddenly announced that all their (male) priests must access women's spaces; they'd had a vision, and all women must repeat after them: priestwomen are women, and any who refused were bigots... would you accept? Why must I serve someone else's faith belief?

Do you know that the very word 'woman' will change definition, if the lobby you support succeed? If we can't define what a woman is, how can we accurately capture data? How can we record male violence, the pay gap, our representation in media, finance, business, the law, government, civil service... anywhere?

A lobby loudly insisting that they won't be erased (when the main trans org is brought in to train all major businesses, branches of government, universities and NHS trusts - many have the logo on letter heads) are actively campaigning to erase the very definition of what a woman is. Have you noticed how easy it is to define a woman when we're being aborted, married off to old men, denied the vote, subject to our husbands, raped, murdered, paid less, represented less in every single sector of industry, government, media, and finance, expected to perform most of the world's unpaid labour, and constituting 71% of the world's modern slaves? The only places that seem unsure on what a woman is are the places feminism was starting to make inroads. It's almost like there must be some sort of a connection, isn't it?

I don't have any resentment or hatred for trans people. I agree that there should be protection against discrimination and abuse. I just don't agree that male people should access women's spaces, or benefit from women's provision, at will, without our consent.

I started researching this to prove gender critical women wrong. But I was wrong. You ask why women here aren't going along with it all. So I ask - why are you?

wellbehavedwomen · 10/03/2020 04:53

Op - your girl is brave. I'm glad you support her, and I'm grateful to her for standing up for this. It will have made others in her class question the monolith a little. Absolutely go to bat for her in school - her courage deserves no less.

(And apologies for the wall of text - I wish someone had done that for me when I first read something on here. It would have made my pwn gender critical awakening faster! There's so much solid evidence out there, once you start to look for it. Again, sorry to post on this thread... but I hope the poster I responded to at least goes and looks this up a bit more. I wish I had, earlier on.)

eurochick · 10/03/2020 04:58

applauds

sashh · 10/03/2020 05:20

I would point to the equality act and that your daughter is protected because of her sex, that the school allowed direct discrimination against her, not just to happen, but forced her to appologise for being a woman.

The school also has a duty of care to your dd.

And printou the message from @wellbehavedwomen

She would not be doing the detention and I'd consider taking legal advice.

mouldyoldonkey · 10/03/2020 05:42

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