8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

We don't know what has been said to those girls except they have to be extra kind to the young boy. So the allusion is there already of 'f you don't except this you are being unkind.'

What if other boys start saying they want to change with the girls? They will have set a precedent already so they wouldn't be able to say no. Where does it stop?

It's not up to the girls to budge up and make room. It's up to the teachers and parents to act like adults and come up with a solution that is best for everyone not just one person.

So following that idea through, what if they never mind? Would that be a bad outcome in your opinion? Do you think they should mind?
That's getting a bit Peter Tatchell and his article about young teenagers having happy sex and how it was all fine and therefore we shouldn't stop them because it might all be fine.

Okay, so none of the girls have said they minded this popular boy changing with them

Children are very vulnerable to adult persuasion and at that age are very unlikely to speak out, even if they did feel uncomfortable. And if miraculously those particular girls did for some reason grow up to think it's ok to get undressed in front of men they don't know, (successful grooming) the majority of women are not in agreement with this. This is why we have single sex spaces. To keep women safe. All men know this. They know what men are like and what they think. This is why the decent men wouldn't dream of imposing on women in this way. It's only the somewhat nefarious ones that push for women sharing with fully intact males. And tell women they are terfs, bigots, unkind, threaten to harm them, dox them, for refusing to lower their personal boundaries.

Socalm

So following that idea through, what if they never mind? Would that be a bad outcome in your opinion? Do you think they should mind?

Yes, I think that single sex spaces are an important part of safeguarding as well as being an important cultural support and protective measure for women and girls in particular, but also for boys and men. Girls should definitely mind being asked to share with boys when they are vulnerable. Once they have this principle established, they can be taught about nuance (eg friendship groups coming to a different conclusion in certain circumstances, intimate relationships, familial relations).

@Socalm the girls have been told told they shouldn't mind, that to mind would be mean, unkind, unacceptable. They're 8 they look up to their teachers and accept what they say as truth.

My DD is 5 there have been times at school where silly inconsequential things have been said by teachers which as an adult I can interpret as being lighthearted or joking but my DD has accepted them as the absolute truth and 100% correct.

A good example of this is last year in reception, DD was wearing a summer dress with zip, had scratched her belly on a twig at the weekend and wanted to show her friends so unzipped her dress. Her teacher took her aside and told her that it was wrong, she should never show her chest to people or remove her clothes and went through the Private's are private talk. Her teacher also took me aside and said it could be interpreted as sexualised behaviour. DD refused to wear her summer dresses again that year, only T-shirt and pinafore because it was wrong. This year she has already picked out the dresses that look like T-shirt's attached to gingham skirts.

You cannot rely on a group of 8 year olds who have been told negative feelings would be bad to then voice their negative feelings.

Okay, so none of the girls have said they minded this popular boy changing with them. In fact the OP's daughter would be "mortified" if her mother complained. So following that idea through, what if they never mind? Would that be a bad outcome in your opinion? Do you think they should mind

Following that particular situation through.....It is likely that one, a few, or most of the girls might well come to mind a few years down the line....and even if not in the case of this one particular boy who'd they'd grown up with...it certainly wouldn't apply as a principle in the case of all boys or any boy....this is about general principles and practices which are there and exist for a reason.

Would the school be requesting that muslim girls go elsewhere to change should they or their parents have a major issue with this infringement? If so...what madness are we creating.

the boy requires support, but that does not mean impinging on spaces designed for the privacy and comfort of girls.

A much 'fairer' solution would be to say 'all children will change clothes in one room whilst everyone wears a poncho.'

Why should only the girls be affected by this one child's wants?

I agree with pp. It is extremely worrying that this one boy's privacy and feelings have been considered but all of the girl's feelings and privacy have not been considered. The girls are told to accept this boy's wants are more important than the girls and they have to go along with it. What is that teaching these girls?

Why doesn't the one boy change in a private area on his own if he doesn't want to change with the other boys? Why should the girls loose their privacy?

They definitely should mind. If they do not, their boundaries have not yet been properly established.

I'm with you OP and all the concerns already expressed very well on this thread. These girls are being groomed from a young age to disregard their own boundaries and discomforts. That won't lead anywhere good for them.

I'm not very surprised the school has taken this approach. For decades girls have been used as a tool to manage 'problematic' boys. I remember in primary school regularly being moved from my usual seat, away from my friends to sit next to boys who were rowdy/didn't pay attention in class. I expect many women remember that sort of thing from the 70s/80s. There was always zero consideration of the effect on the girls.

Please stand your ground. Even if your DD doesn't thank you right now for 'making a fuss' she will when she's older and understands that no is a full sentence.

I agree with OP and most on this thread. I remember DD aged seven being upset to see a boy in the changing rooms at her swimming lesson even although I was there and it was cubicles for actual changing. Another parent had brought this boy of about 8 or 9 in for some reason. I could see DD’s shock at what she thought was a female space being breached. It’s just not appropriate and how the boy feels doesn’t trump how the girls feel.

*Why doesn't the one boy change in a private area on his own if he doesn't want to change with the other boys? Why should the girls loose their privacy8

That is precisely what much of this boils down to. There is an unquestioned assumption that women and girls should make way and cater to the feelings of men and boys - in their own spaces and sports.

Then people are told their is no conflict of rights. When of course there is. The obvious solution is to make a third space...so everyone can feel comfortable. Then the next step is to try to break down ridiculous gendered expectations and stereotypes - and halt the madness of transitioning children.

there is no conflict

So one child (boy) says 'I feel uncomfortable changing with boys.'

That's 'ok' and we should be 'extra kind' to that child and allow him to change with the girls.

Another child (girl) says 'I feel uncomfortable changing with boys.'

That's not 'ok' and we should force her to 'be kind' and change with the boys.

I don't understand this. Why does one person's feelings matter more than another? When the two children above are saying the same thing 'I don't like changing with boys', why is one being told 'that's ok' and the other being told 'that's not ok'?

Can someone explain that please?

No he shouldn’t.

'No' - why are adults afraid of using this word?
Just 'No'.
It doesn't make one a bad person to use it.

Well, yes, but this is what transactivism is all about. Removing the right of women and girls to say “No”.

It’s entirely predicated on eroding women’s and girls’ boundaries, on demonising our wish to even have boundaries. The right to say “no male people here” is disappearing before our very eyes: transactivists are doing everything in their power via to make it both illegal and socially unacceptable for women to say a comprehensive No to male people.

And look. They’ve succeeded with these little 8yo girls. Bravo.

This is a complete dereliction of duty on the part of the adults charged with safeguarding them. Since when do we allow children - especially children as young as 8! - to make their own decisions re safeguarding issues? What other safeguarding areas are there where we would countenance such an idea?

I suggest you raise that point with them. Putting pressure on the girls to make the decision themselves is in itself a failure of safeguarding. And the whole scenario is a safeguarding concern regardless of whether this boy is an actual threat because if they learn early on to prioritise the needs/feelings of others (especially males) above their own, it can make them more vulnerable to the kind of sexual assault that relies on coercion and manipulation later on. And it’s an assault on their dignity and need for privacy from the opposite sex, in any case.

But I’m very sad to hear that your DD will already be mortified by you bringing this up. They’ve already been groomed, haven’t they? The children by the school - and the school by transactivists.

The girls already know the consequences of asserting their boundaries will be social disapprobation, maybe even ostracism. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the school’s “solution” is to offer your DD a separate place to change, alone, in the style of all those TRA “toolkits”. So I’d be prepared with an answer to that one if I were you.

Op it’s hard if you’re the only one but I wouldn’t let it go. I’d say no I’m / we’re not ok with it.

So following that idea through, what if they never mind? Would that be a bad outcome in your opinion? Do you think they should mind?

I agree that the PP that said this should look up Peter Tatchell who recently said that girls should be constantly told that they shouldn’t feel uncomfortable in mixed sex changing rooms. I think you should look at his background on intergenerational sex in particular but also that he does not seem to have any respect at all for females.

Yes, great that you might grow up to not ever feel that discomfort. Others are saying that they do not share this freedom from discomfort.

It is not therefore an easy decision to make based on the fact that now they are only 8, what happens when the first girl starts her period. I have had friend’s daughters start then. what happens next year or the next?

Whether or not someone actually feels uncomfortable, they still need to understand the boundary. They still need to mind someone breaching that boundary.

In another era in Ireland you could imagine pressure being put on boys not to protest about a particular priest coming into the boys’ changing rooms. The same arguments would have been used about him being above suspicion, the same moral outrage would have attached to anyone even daring to think ill of a man of the church. The boys in that scenario would have been punished for their discomfort and fear.

That sacred caste mentality hasn’t gone away at all, and nothing has been learnt from it, no more than it has here in the UK.

I actually think this is cruel to the boy, it is unrealistic expectations and setting him up to fight upsetting battle after upsetting battle. The people telling him he is really a girl now are patting themselves on the back and feeling virtuous, but it's the easy option for them. The fallout when he has to move into the boys at puberty, when he is encouraged to constantly fight to be in with the girls, how self concious he will be under his towel, in every new setting, in every hobby, when he realises he's different to the girls, is really cruel.

It's like telling an unfit and overweight child they are really slim and healthy, here have more cake. It appears to be a nice thing to do at that moment, but harder for that child long term as they do actually know they can't fit into clothes or keep up with their friends. Take their mind off it and gradually teach them to be happy and responsible for their health.

Over the next few years, the girls might get self conscious at different points, will each of them be able to change elsewhere, as the numbers increase, or is there a tipping point where he has to leave? The school are making more work for themselves and making his identity into a way bigger deal than it has to be.

The better approach is to downplay it and encourage the boys to be kind and accepting. Any boy mocking him should be very sternly dealt with and we might end up with a generation where you really can subvert gender norms without having to pretend to be something you are not.

Teach the boys to be kind, not the girls to be boundary free and "nice." Teach this boy that his identity isn't actually that weird/different/special and he might be able to fill his life with more exciting things than fighting for his "rights," naval gazing and self analysis.

They still need to mind someone breaching that boundary.

I think the importance of this should not be underestimated.

I really couldn't give a stuff about who is using the next toilet to me. But in single sex facilities I should absolutely be wary of any male presence. Because, IME, decent men don't use women's toilets. A man in the women's toilet simply is a bigger risk than average, because he has already demonstrated that he doesn't understand social norms around women's privacy.

But there's no evidence at all that any of the girls mind!

They're not old enough, or life experienced enough, to understand the implications and consequences. Chances are they're thinking about playing with their friends after school, which is as it should be.

The parents should be intervening here and not offloading this 'choice' to their eight year olds!

You're doing the right thing by addressing this, OP. I really hope that your concerns get taken seriously.

We were segregated by sex for changing for PE, swimming, and toilets/cloakroom by Year 3, or 7 years old, in the Juniors school area.
Mixed sex changing was only for the Infants.

I’m with you on this one OP. It’s utterly ridiculous IMO that the boundaries of young vulnerable girls are so thoughtlessly and carelessly violated by the school just to please someone who shouldn’t be there in the first place. The boy can change himself in the toilet/ teacher’s office and the whole class can learn the lesson that girls and women are entitled to privacy, safety and dignity, no matter what!

OP I wouldn't let it go either. You've got many good suggestions.
But I fully agree with sending a letter before the meeting.

TheHairyBodParents
I was reading what you wrote about being the first to develop.
If it's any comfort it also goes the other way. 1st òyear of high school so 11/12 year old girls. I was one of the very youngest in my year. And not particularly developed at this point in time. Another girl a month older than me had an older sister in the same class (10 months between them). We were in the PE changing room.The older sister announced to all the girls Julie still has a baldy fanny.
I cringed thinking thank God nobody know I'm still bald down there too.