8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

I also think this boys parents and the school are failing him massively in terms of teaching him about consent.

He needs to know it’s ok for girls to say no. They don’t even need a reason to say no.

If any girl doesn’t want him in the changing room for whatever reason then that is sufficient reason for him not to be there.

The school is looking for an easy solution, one that will draw the least pushback. They're just testing who will make a stink. But it's not the girls' job to sacrifice themselves to make teachers' lives easy.

@Sexnotgender

Yep. ‘No’ is a sentence in itself.

Either sex segregation is important or it isn't.

Exactly this.

I have a 9 year old boy. The idea that they're not aware of this stuff at this age is rubbish - he has to go in the men's changing rooms at the pool now, rather than in the ladies with me, and is scandalised that they walk around naked (I'll mention that we're a fairly naked household, so this is all just social expectations kicking in with strangers).

Hell, my 6 year old prefers to change in private even from me and always has (never minds jumping in the bath if he notices I'm in there I note though, so he's selective when he applies his no-nudity rule!).

This is appalling.

I was an early developer and the thought of having to
in front of other girls while developing breasts/pubic hair would have been stressful enough (don't remember anyone doing this at my primary as I don't think we had showers), but but to have been forced to do this in front of a boy would have been utterly humiliating and unimaginably stressful.

8 years old is not 5 - many of these girls will already be on the cusp of puberty now and the ones who aren't yet will be soon. It is completely unacceptable to deny them the right to privacy whole ensuring that all the boys have it.

You are right to be concerned. This school is teaching your daughter and her friends that they cannot assert boundaries around their own bodies against all males, regardless of how those males identify. That their own feelings of discomfort and their desire for privacy from all males are disrespectful and problematic.

I would absolutely raise this with the school, and I would complain that how they have gone about this by emotionally blackmailing the girls into prioritising this boy's wishes over their own. This puts undue pressure on the girls.

Ireland has ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). And proceeding as the school seeks to do, breaches several of the girls' article rights under the UNCRC. If you want to arm yourself with some information as to how to argue this, here is a Children's Rights Impact Assessment which explores this at length.

Although this was written with a focus on Scotland, the arguments about girls' rights under the convention apply to yours, too. You just have to adapt it to whatever frameworks are used in Ireland.

Btw when Ireland brought in self-id, schools were explicitly excluded and there are a whole range of exceptions in place that were aimed at maintaining the privacy and dignity of everyone. WPUK wrote about this in The Irish Question.

HTH

What's the purpose of the poncho?
Is it to protect the child from the girls looking at the child's body? What will happen to the girls seeing a naked male body that won't happen to the child seeing a female body? Or is it to stop the child being reminded they're different? Being the only one changing under a poncho is going to make that child feel different no matter what they have under the poncho.
And what happens if they struggle with the poncho, will it be quietly abandoned?
If Sam in Y6 decides he is now Samantha how are they going to deal with that? Timmy has been in with the girls for years so why can't Sam be the same? Who will be the arbiter of 'genuine' and who will risk their career by saying Sam isn't the same as Timmy?

Could you ask the school if the parents of girls need to start providing them with a poncho in order to ensure their privacy too.

I have a 9 year old boy. The idea that they're not aware of this stuff at this age is rubbish

Totally. I had to fight my once 6 year old boy to come into the women's toilets with me as he couldn't really manage by himself. At age 8 there was no way he would have been coming into the ladies. As for changing with the girls at school? Absolutely not. I question why that child would think changing with the girls is even an option unless the school or the parents put it in his head. If he really can't get changed with his own biological sex then the school needs to find somewhere else for him. The girls changing room isn't a fallback option for boys /men.

? Around here most of the kids have a towel poncho for swimming. It's a fairly normal accessory.

The boy and his classmates are 8... now. Thing is with children is that they don't stop growing.

Then they'll be 9. Then 10. They'll be starting puberty. And maybe the little girls that were okay with the situation when they were 8 are less okay with it when they start their periods, growing breasts and getting body hair. But now they can't speak out because it's been years by this point and a precedent is set.

Yes great point about asking the school if they will be supplying the girls with ponchos to cover their modesty too!

FairytaleofBykerGrove
So glad you are speaking up for your daughter & the other girls in the class - I wonder how many of the other parents would be ok with this when the girls are 10 & many have breast buds or have started periods.

Teaching girls that they have to change in front of a male & disregard their own feelings is disgusting.

I would start with why do we sex segregate & what makes this an exception (it isn’t)
Secondly most of the girls will be unhappy changing in front of a boy at 10 even if they aren’t just now.
I would be concerned about safeguarding at the school if they don’t understand that children can’t consent & single sex spaces are important.

I believe the law as it stands requires separate facilities based on sex after the age of eight. This child is a boy who is in fact no different from other boys, who need to be kind and accepting. There is no reason to make special facilities in the opposite sex changing rooms. As someone pointed out , while this particular boy may not be a risk there is a rise in sexual assaults in primary schools, which is why the facilities are separated in the first place. Good luck OP in taking a stand on this, for the sake of all the girls.

I think if there was a specific medical need, separate facilities could be provided, eg a child with a colostomy bag ...

So what happens when he hits 9 then? This hasn't been thought out.

We don't give our kids everything they ask for - and there's a reason for that.

Four years is a long time. I would worry about what happens when he's a teenager when it happens

That is not the point.....kicking the can down the road doesn't help at all; and which is how we've got in this mess in the first place. Being cognisant of how ideas and practices are likely to follow through is a necessary component of logical thought.

If he's changing under a poncho in the girls room, why can't he change under a poncho in the boys room? Why can't the other boys be told to "be kind" and why aren't they expected to "be nice"? Why do the girls have to budge up and make room?

Oh well. I'd change boys and girls together in a family change room no worries at that age. That's why it doesn't seem a big deal to me

Another part of the mess we're now in is that people have a tendency only to think about themselves; their own friends or close family members. If "my sweet trans friend/child is harmless, and you are a big meanie for standing firm and insisting on single sex spaces".

It really is not all about individuals and their feelings - it is about wider principles and practices and are how they are managed.

Being cognisant of how ideas and practices are likely to follow through is a necessary component of logical thought

Okay, so none of the girls have said they minded this popular boy changing with them. In fact the OP's daughter would be "mortified" if her mother complained. So following that idea through, what if they never mind? Would that be a bad outcome in your opinion? Do you think they should mind?

Another part of the mess we're now in is that people have a tendency only to think about themselves; their own friends or close family members. If "my sweet trans friend/child is harmless, and you are a big meanie for standing firm and insisting on single sex spaces".

Absolutely this.

So following that idea through, what if they never mind? Would that be a bad outcome in your opinion? Do you think they should mind?

They are too young to understand if they should be minding or not. Even if they never mind this kid what good comes of teaching these girls that males in their private spaces is acceptable?

Its putting them in danger.

This is a prime example of when compliance comes into play - I can imagine parents, let alone children (in this case girls) feeling compelled to comply with this situation for fear of looking discriminative towards the boy. The girls will feel too uncomfortable to voice their concerns for fear of exposing their self-consciousness and think they might be ridiculed by their peers.
Sweeping statements like “oh they won’t mind”, “honestly, they won’t give it a seconds thought” are really worrying.

that seems like a lot of pressure on an eight year old girl to be the one who has to say ‘no’ to something that everyone else seems ok with

This. Your poor DD> I hope you can advocate for her.

The REAL problem is that the young boy may be looking at what it is to be male/masculine and thinking "Not for me" - and who can blame him? The playground can be a rough brutal place for young boys.

We need to change the idea of masculinity, not the bodies of children!

And it's not just girls who should be kind, it's everyone. And I think some people on this thread could benefit from being kind and thinking before they post

That works both ways...it is not just one way traffic.

I came to this corner of the internet precisely because I have given the whole issue a lot of thought. As harsh as it may feel to you......the feelings of individuals is not the issue....the issue has far wider implications. Not everything is about " the individual and their feelings". That is how we've got into this mess. Narcissistic self focus in a consumerist age, in which everyone acts as if they are the centre of the universe - and can simply purchase made to measure 'idenntities' - regardless of the rights of other groups of people.

The obvious solution is third spaces.