8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

(Although I admit that it’s focus is for post primary my gut ya that is what they’ll turn to)

Also the Equal Status Act allows for exemptions. Specifically “ persons.
Exemptions on specific grounds. Link www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/#3

So the school are breaking your daughters right under the Equal Status Act.

Extract:

The Equal Status Acts allow people to be treated differently on specific grounds:

Gender

The Acts allow people to be treated differently on ground of gender in relation to:

Cosmetic Services, covering cosmetic, aesthetic or similar services which involve physical contact (e.g. hairdressing);
Privacy/Embarrassment, where embarrassment or breach of privacy could reasonably be expected to happen on account of the presence of a person of another gender ”

On reflection the Equal Status Act is probably the best one to go for.
(Not invested at all in this thread. Oh no. Not me )

arraye

We have sex segregation in certain situations in this country. The law allows us to do this, for good reasons.

We do not segregate by sexuality, or by race.

Please explain how, precisely, and when, exactly, this male child became female, allowing him to bypass the current arrangements that the law upholds for segregating naked people by sex?

Many thanks xxsex. I have a meeting with a school this month regarding similar issues to the op and i am certainly going to bring up the equal status act.

My point is you are assuming all trans people are predatory

No. I don't assume that transmen are predatory. What is a fact though is that transwomen have the same rate of male pattern violence as men. This is because they are biological males. It doesn't miraculously change after a declaration of female gender. This is why changing areas are sex segregated. To protect women. From male pattern violence and sexual assault.

My point is you are assuming all trans people are predatory

Not at all. But are they more likely to be predatory than females? Well, the media reports of late suggest that they definitely are or do you just put that down to, I don’t know, predatory men pretending to be transwo men and they are not legit transwo men. Pop over to the ‘it never happens’ thread to see some of the recent perpetrators.

Or do you just think that biased media would ignore the chance to report predatory females so that we think there are so few in comparison?

I once walked into the female swimming changing rooms with my 8 and 10 year old girls.

A boy who did not have additional needs(private school uniform giveaway) who was above my shoulder height (5’9”)
Was getting his hair dried staring out into the changing room.
Two mothers were telling their small daughters to shush and just get changed.
My two met my glance, looked at each other and disappeared into the toilets to get changed,

It shouldn’t happen. Even if he was a particularly giant 8 year old he could have been facing the wall not staring out watching all the girls.

Why is female dignity sacrificed on the alter for male feelings?

Why didn’t you ask for him to be removed, OverMy? I would have.

A lot of women and girls don't feel able to report all sorts of stuff. A lot of women and girls are brought up not to make a fuss. Even if you think you would do something, when it happens sometimes you don't.

That's the way it is and part of the reason the advice of oh you can always report of something's not right, is poor advice.

There's a thread at the moment with loads of women telling about being raped and not reporting. And that's as serious as it gets.

That is what most people who use the argument ‘what would be different, a man can always get access to women now anyway’ are actually completely lacking empathy for women and have their heads in the sand.

The incredible low rates of prosecution of sex crimes against women are yet another element in the erosion of women’s rights. Police chase hate crime against the trans community but don’t have an effective rate of chasing and prosecuting sex crimes against women. Although, there is enough media coverage of the crimes of transwo men once you read the article and look at the persons picture to realize yet another ‘female’ offender is actually male and following their true sex pattern of violence.

So, why would we not fight to have our single sex safe spaces free of penises in light of this?

After I’d seen my two into their lesson I did go and speak to the manager. More signs were put up and so far so good re single sex changing.

But why was he in there at all?

I’ve had men removed from female changing rooms, from the specific alcove for breast feeding in a baby area. From touching my legs under a train table. It’s always nerve rattling, they are always unpleasant there are always female sympathisers for the man being upset by the difficult woman causing a fuss.

I’m sick and tired of it.

OverMy
It is tiresome isn't it, to be the difficult woman. But good for you in asserting yourself.
Age shifts you too. I would deal very differently now faced with situations I was in as a younger woman. Unfortunately many of us learn by experience.

The male child apparently has not claimed to be female, correct? So why shouldn't any other boy demand to be allowed into the girl's changing room if he is allowed in? If an exception is made for this boy, then where does it stop? The rule isn't "boys who are very comfortable with girls" who get to change with them, surely. There has to be some fair cut off point where the two groups are separated, and that can't be it.

Claiming to be female shouldn’t get him a free pass to the ladies, either. If he doesn’t want to change with the boys he can go somewhere on his own.

No, just.. it simply would never have been allowed when I was at school, any of this. It's WRONG.

Girls were not even allowed to wear trousers until a certain year in my school and boys were NEVER allowed to wear skirts. If they did they would definitely have been bullied for it but would probably have been forced to change or sent home. It was viewed as totally unacceptable for a boy to wear a skirt.

I personally don't understand why a boy would want to wear a skirt as they are not the most comfortable of garments, especially when running around at playtime in school. I'm female and have always hated them as I felt exposed with them on.

In fact, if a boy had been allowed in the changing rooms I would have done anything to get out of gym - even forge sick notes. There's something .. creepy about it.

My son is 8 and I'd just tell him 'absolutely not'. I wouldn't even entertain the idea.
I always tell him life is all about 'easy come, easy go'.

The hypocrisy of the situation is staggering.
I honestly don't know how the parents and school said it with a straight face.

The boy gets to keep his modesty (is that the purpose of the poncho?), but the girls absolutely don't and are just collateral damage??
The school are out of order for capitulating to an 8 year old!

I do wonder, though, if they feel that their hands are tied and fear the 'sacred caste'? They'd be wrong, of course, the law is clear.

Lots of luck. I admire the hell out of you, Fairy.

I know it's only Wed fairy but I'm guessing that you could be waiting a while for the guidance/feedback.

Will your DD be removed from Swimming in the meantime? It might not be a weekly class and the boy might not be allowed in the girls yet anyway.

I hope you get the answer soon but I expect that no one will know what to do so will take their sweet time deciding.

Can’t he just go In the girls changing rooms and change 5 mins earlier? That way he’s acknowledged but the girls have their privacy

He could do that in the boys though couldnt he?

It's not about the room. Its about who's in it.

Or the boys 5 minutes earlier? So he avoids whatever he doesn’t like about changing with the boys without bringing the girls into it at all??

Can’t he just go In the girls changing rooms and change 5 mins earlier?

Because that wouldn't be changing with the girls. The while goal is getting him changed with the girls.

I wonder if anyone has asked this little tacker what is meant by 'feeling like a girl'? At 8, a thoughtful child should be able to begin to articulate their inner experience. Reassurance of normality and reality may be all that is really needed to ensure comfort.

Where have we gone wrong that little children are policing, examining and labelling their interests and impulses against rigid but essentially arbitrary gender norms? At 8 I was getting around topless in summer, wearing shorts, falling in streams, catching tadpoles, climbing trees, reading books, riding my bike and playing with dolls I had made myself. I swear I never questioned whether my activities conformed to gender expectations; I was too busy having a childhood. Let's give all children their childhood back and stop political lobby groups poking and prodding them in such perverse ways!

Hear hear, Granny...there's a little too much introspection going on.