8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

Adults have a habit of thinking "oh, they're all young children, it's fine". No it's not fine. Children don't have to have reached puberty to need privacy. The girls may be feeling pressured to accept this, even if that pressure is only slight. It's also teaching them that it's ok to have males in their changing rooms.

30 years ago boys would have been seen wearing a dress, but would not have thought that made him a girl. Probably not to school , because in those days life was less about self and ego especially in school, but certainly socialising.

'black women were excluded from women’s toilets during segregation '

In America

The movement is also incredibly USA centric, with some arguments being utterly irrelevant to other countries around the world.

30 years ago a boy wearing a dress would have had the piss taken out of him and experienced homophobia

And would today as well I'm sure

Combat homophobia and get rid of gender roles that limit both boys and girls.

The movement is also incredibly USA centric, with some arguments being utterly irrelevant to other countries around the world

Absolutely! A real bug bear of mine....and to think the America hating instincts of Jeremy Corbyn have coincided with the wholesale ideological capture and import of American identity politics into Britain, and the rest of the Western world.

Black girls go in the girls change.

Black boys go in the boys change.

No similarity with American segregation whatsoever.

The movement is also incredibly USA centric, with some arguments being utterly irrelevant to other countries around the world.

It's like when studenty types were banging on about sombreros and appropriation. Like, sure, OK, but surely you could find examples that are more applicable within a British cultural context.

you could find examples that are more applicable within a British cultural context

They can't because British culture and history isn't actually taught very well, if at all, in our schools. I say this as someone who knew more presidents than prime ministers as a kid. I had to teach myself, as an adult about black British first world war history for example, as the whole era has been whitewashed.

It's why our history is now merged in a lot of people's minds with US history, case in point segregation.

Just reading Paul Theroux's 'Deep South' - in which he wanders the southern states observing how race segregation effectively still exists and is enforced; and how slavery still very much shapes the present.

A very particular experience and narrative......and one which dominates US political discourse...that and gender identity politics......and 'the church' - with all of its implications and place in American consciousness.

.....and gun shows/gun culture etc

30 years ago a boy wearing a dress would have had the piss taken out of him

I can well imagine in certain areas a boy wearing skirts and dresses would still get the piss taken out of them.

Which is shit, obvs. Girls can wear trousers and boys can wear dresses and should be free to do so without fear of persecution.

But clothes don’t alter the wearers sexed anatomy.

And who implanted this nonsense in the boy's head in the first place!
I'd take this to the governors if you get no joy from the school. You're quite right - and I'm surprised the other parents are being so passive.

Which is why my post said this, blackbear

'30 years ago a boy wearing a dress would have had the piss taken out of him and experienced homophobia

And would today as well I'm sure'

Why do people do that? It's so odd.

I mean pretend they're adding something when it was in the original post.

People do it all the time, all over the place. It's distracting and weird.

My point is you are assuming all trans people are predatory.

Don't be so silly. We don't assume all men are predatory. Still don't want to get changed or showered in front of them. And that includes my FIL, my DS, my DD's boyfriend, allof whom I can guarantee are not predatory.

Yip. I don’t think my 19 year old son is a predator but that doesn’t make it ok for him to change with his little sister’s swim class

It's not OK for boys to have to change with predatory males either. No one should be. But this is about boundaries, where sex matters.

He calls himself a he (who is a girl).

@FairytaleofBykerGrove this gets curiouser and curiouser. He's aware that he's male ("calls himself he") but thinks he's a girl? His parents really need to give him some boundaries & guidance, and try to tease out what is causing his cognitive dissonance. It sounds as though there are very strong gender role/stereotype categories in his head - maybe he thinks because he likes to wear dresses & play with the girls, this makes him a girl. Dr Katie Alcock's work on the stages /ages of what children recognise with regards to sex & gender would be interesting here.

And let him change under a poncho in the boys' changing room.

I’ve had an email from the head saying she is waiting for guidance from the school’s umbrella body before responding. I have a huge follow up email formed into a list of questions and I’m sitting on my hands refraining from sending it on to her as I do not want to be seen as the school nutjob...unless absolutely necessary...

I did not respond to @ChickenonaMug but I did want to thank you sincerely for daring to share your experiences. If I am honest you post comes just a little too close to my own experiences which I am just not ready to deal with or share. I expect that is why the whole thing has upset me so much. Thank you again. You have made a difference.

I’m not a predictor but my 15 year old son will not get changed in the same room as me and I feel the same. We all deserve our boundaries and 8 year olds shouldn’t have to do what we wouldn’t expect adults or older children to do when it comes to safeguarding,

Thing is if you let 8yo do it (currently law says no) then theres no reason to say no at 12,14,16

To FairyTale and Chicken - your posts on your experiences are very moving and have stayed with me since I read this thread.

But NO WOMAN or GIRL should have to disclose experiences of sexual assault, harassment, or abuse in order simply to maintain legally implemented & supported, socially respectful, and humanly dignified boundaries.

If we all have to testify to assault etc in order to maintain what is ours (legally, socially, ethically) as women requiring single-sex accommodations it's a pretty low bar and one that should shock a decent society.

Umbrella body? What’s the bet they’re being advised by stonewall / mermaids and the like...

I’m Irish. The schools umbrella body is likely to take guidance from this document section 4.4.6 www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Being-LGBT-in-School.pdf

Basically suck it up and re educate the family who causes a fuss!

Some suggestions below:

I’d ask to see their Child Safeguarding policy where this should have been assessed.

Ask for their Equality Impact Assessment where they’ve considered the rights of a girl as a protected class.

Ask for their Equality Impact Assessment where they’ve considered the rights of a religion (protected class) who can’t be in a state of undress with a member of the opposite sex

Ask to see where they have assessed, recorded and reported on how this satisfies their statuatory obligations under section 42 of the EHRC Act where the children are the service users where dignity has to be particularly covered. www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/2019/03/IHREC_Public_Sector_Duty_Final_Eng_WEB.pdf

I’m livid on your daughters behalf.