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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

749 replies

FairytaleofBykerGrove · 06/03/2020 02:45

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

OP posts:
MadamePewter · 07/03/2020 18:06

@Elsiebear90 if you see my post further up I am absolutely not ok with boys in the ladies changing room either.

But this is a whole separate issue.

Elsiebear90 · 07/03/2020 18:12

@LynnSchmob yes they are, I’ve been told by posters that it’s a “completely different scenario” because they are with their relatives so are supervised and more likely to be well behaved, see the post below your’s as an example.

nauticant · 07/03/2020 18:12

You're instincts about the father are good FairytaleofBykerGrove. Best not to engage with someone who's using this to perform wokeness.

Wearywithteens · 07/03/2020 18:15

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 07/03/2020 18:15

Elsie - that's completely disingenuous - a poster suggested it was slightly different, and pointed out that it's a regular subject that women on MN are outraged about:

I think that it's slightly different if a young boy is with a parent. Less opportunity for inappropriate behaviour.

But there is regular outrage on MN when there are accounts of boys older than 8 being in women's single-sex changing rooms.

Elsiebear90 · 07/03/2020 18:19

@treestumps

The reply I was quoting was this one actually:

... boys brought into female changing rooms by their mums or grandmas..

...are likely to be much better behaved compared to, say, when at school and the teacher is otherwise engaged; my PE teachers over the years had their own changing room, is it different now?

Completely different scenarios.”

So no I’m not being disingenuous at all.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 07/03/2020 18:23

Our leisure centre doesn’t allow it from 8 anyway.

mencken · 07/03/2020 18:24

I hope the answer is a flat 'no'. He can wear what he likes (possibly) but we segregate children at this age for changing by the genitalia. Unless he's had an op (hope not!!) he's a boy and he changes with the boys. And he absolutely does not use a poncho if the girls are not allowed to.

the world has gone mad.

FloralBinting · 07/03/2020 18:34

Lolol @ the wide eyed "I'm just pointing out that if you allow 8 yearolds in with their mums, you must allow an 8 year old to change with the girls alone!" schtick.

What the hell is it with certain people trying to find bloody loopholes in boundaries, eh?

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 07/03/2020 18:49

How we feel as adult women towards changing in front of boys is irrelevant. We don't have to put up with those same boys giggling they saw a girls knickers on the climbing frame in the playground for example. Or just spend all day with them. It's how the girls feel towards boys that matters here- and they shouldn't feel they have to ignore these feelings to be 'kind'. Kindness works both ways.

Blackbear19 · 07/03/2020 18:51

TBH I can totally get a Mum wanting to keep her 8 or 9 yo DS with her when in changing rooms. You don't know what's going on in the Mens (dodgy blokes). Some boys will faff and arse around no end especially if they have a mate to faff with and nobody to supervise them.

However I see this as a completely different scenario, no dodgy men, they are all kids. And I'd assume "somebody" pool staff, teacher will be keeping an eye on them for any faffing.

My own DS at 8.5 decided he wanted to use the mens. I was pretty worried on how it would go. TBH it's been fine. But that's a private pool with only kids lessons at that time so no dodgy men.

Purpleartichoke · 07/03/2020 18:58

At the leisure center near Our old home the cutoff for boys in the women’s was 4 and under. At our new one it is effectively zero. The communal women’s changing area is for women only. There are ample family changing rooms for parents and children of any combination.

Deliriumoftheendless · 07/03/2020 19:28

If the argument for adults is that female looking transwomen are at risk in with the men, what is the actual reasoning for a boy who looks like all the other boys changing with the girls?

Lordfrontpaw · 07/03/2020 19:47

Hmmm let me think... so the girls will be groomed to believe that they don’t have the right to have a female only space.

And of course those little boys will grow up to be big boys and men and expect... oh, unfettered entry into woman’s spaces?

SarahTancredi · 07/03/2020 20:08

Bingo lord

Job done

Angry
ChickenonaMug · 07/03/2020 20:09

I have posted about this before but I just want explain why I think that it is so important the school actually uphold appropriate and consistent boundaries for all children.

I was being sexually abused by an adult male relative from about the age of 7yrs (my earliest memory that I can date). The abuse continued until I was nearly 14yrs.

At the age of 10 I was sexually assaulted by two boys who were in my class at school. It happened on at least 2 occasions with them both and on one further occasion with one of them. It happened at the house of one of them, the one I had known since we were both babies. At the time that it happened I did not think that they did to me was wrong, although I did think that if someone else had seen it then they would think that I was pretty disgusting. I had an incredibly confused idea about appropriate boundaries (who should see my body and who should touch it). My understanding of boundaries at that time seemed to boil down to thinking that it was shameful if people saw my underwear or something when I was playing and then at the same time completely believing that if anyone (or at least anyone male) wanted to see or touch my body then I shouldn't be bothered about that and that I should ignore any sense that this wasn't right. So I suppose I saw boundaries about my body as something for others to define and decide, therefore anyone who wanted to see my body - then that was for them to choose and for me to oblige and if anyone didn't want to see my body or underwear then it was my shame that I had somehow accidentally inflicted it on them.

What I really needed to understand, as a young child, was that boundaries were there to help me be safe and to keep me comfortable and that they were not actually there to stop people being disgusted by my body/underwear. I also needed to learn, through having boundaries demonstrated and upheld in places such as school etc, that my boundaries about who saw or touched my body, were not for other people (especially males) to decide.

When schools teach girls that they must allow a male child to see them get undressed because they need to be kind to that child, then they are teaching those girls a very dangerous lesson about the unimportance their boundaries. If they are also teaching children, for example the NSPCC PANTS rules and telling them that nobody should ask to see their privates, then the result will be very confused children who are unsure when the PANTS rules apply and when they don't. When children are confused then they are more at risk of being groomed. It is more likely that a predator will find a way to groom a young child who is either confused and unsure about her boundaries or who thinks that kindness is more important than her boundaries.

If there is a girl who is already being groomed or sexually abused in the class then she is probably relying on school to teach her how to understand, develop and assert her boundaries. In my opinion, where a child is being groomed by a manipulative and much more powerful adult predator then this is highly unlikely to achieved in a one off lesson about the PANTS rule, but it may eventually be achieved if other adults and and the school demonstrate what boundaries are for and that they should always be respected. The situation described by the OP most definitely fails in this regard and therefore it is failing all the girls and especially the most vulnerable girls. This is what makes it a safeguarding concern.

SpeedofaSloth · 07/03/2020 20:17

YANBU OP.
My 6yo DD doesn't like changing in the presence of boys anymore. Thankfully I can usually get her a cubicle. Her feelings are just as important as any boy's, and I won't teach her to suppress the instincts that will help keep her safe when I'm not near.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 07/03/2020 20:24

ChickenonaMug I’m so sorry the adults failed to protect you FlowersFlowersFlowers

Thank you for sharing your story to illustrate just why it is so important for us to maintain boundaries.

Languishingfemale · 07/03/2020 20:29

Thank you for sharing your story ChickenonaMug. Flowers
If that doesn't explain the dangers to the "be kind, not safe" brigade, nothing will.

Deliriumoftheendless · 07/03/2020 20:30

They know that.

They don’t care.

StealthPolarBear · 07/03/2020 20:32

It would be really helpful if anyone who wants to come on and day it's no big deal could read ChickenonaMug's post in full first.

AutumnRose1 · 07/03/2020 20:35

OP are any of the girls changing under ponchos?

As this madness goes on, I’d suggest everyone change under a poncho.

I hope your meeting with the school goes well, this is appalling.

SarahTancredi · 07/03/2020 20:35

chicken Flowers

PaleBlueMoonlight · 07/03/2020 20:55

I wonder if it would help if some of these examples were put on the (published) responses to the current Scottish GRA consultation. I appreciate that that consultation is not about children, but it absolutely is about replacing the meaning of girl and boy as biological categories with... well, with what?

LaBelleDameSansPatience · 07/03/2020 21:08

Eight years old is year 3. In my school year 3 boys and girls all change together anyway.