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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Suzanne Moore- The Guardian on Selina Todd

326 replies

Ontheblackhill · 02/03/2020 19:04

Presumably you have all seen this......

www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/women-must-have-the-right-to-organise-we-will-not-be-silenced

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Goosefoot · 04/03/2020 19:53

I do tink the gatekeeping that went on in the past did make a big difference, in terms of who was alowed to proceed and also just in terms of numbers.

The two older transexuals I know are quite different. On has had such serious mental health issues all along that they really are what has former this individuals life. I's not ever be surprised to hear strange ways of understanding reality from this person, and there is a real obsession with being feminine. The other is quite different, extremely elderly now, as in pushing 100, but has had a stable life for many years, after a perhaps less stable life as a gay man. Not a person who seems to spend much time at all trying to seem feminine or spend time in women's groups or anything, and in fact seems more inclined to hang around with men.

But generally speaking, I think when you have a group of people with identity disorders that is going to be a group with other related problems being common.

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 20:11

1979 New York Times Thomas Szasz article:

'Male and Female Created He Them'

(extract)
“isn't transsexualism a disease? Isn't it — in the grandly deceptive phrase of the American psychiatric establishment used to characterize all ‘mental diseases’ — ‘just like any other illness'?” No, it is not. The transsexual male is indistinguishable from other males, save by his desire to be a woman. ("He is a woman trapped in a man's body” is the standard rhetorical form of this claim.) If such a desire qualifies as a disease, transforming the desiring agent into a “transsexual,” then the old person who wants to be young is a “transchronological,” the poor person who wants to be rich is a “transeconomical,” and so on. Such hypothetical claims and the requests for “therapy” based on them (together with our cognitive and
medical responses to them) frame, in my opinion, the proper background against which our contemporary beliefs and practices concerning “transsexualism” and transsexual “therapy” ought to be viewed.

Clearly, not all desires are authenticated in our society as diseases. Why the desire for a change in sex roles is so authenticated is analyzed with great sensitivity and skill by Janice Raymond in “The Transsexual Empire.” Arguing that “medicine and psychology ... function as secular religions in the area of transsexualism,” she demonstrates that this “condition” is now accepted as a disease because advances in the technology of sex‐conversion surgery have made certain alterations in the human genitals possible and because such operations reiterate and reinforce traditional patriarchal sex‐role expectations and stereotypes. Ostensibly, the “transsexers” (from psychologists to urologists) are curing a disease; actually, they engage in the religious and political shaping and controling of “masculine” and “feminine” behavior. Miss Raymond's development and documentation of this thesis is flawless. Her book Is an important achievement." (continues)

Miss Raymond has rightly seized on transsexualism as an emblem of modern society's unremitting — though increasingly concealed — antifeminism. And she correctly emphasizes that “the terminology of transsexualism disguises the reality ... that transsexuals ‘prove’ they are transsexuals by conforming to the canons of the medical‐psychiatric institution that evaluates them on the basis of their being able to pass as stereotypically masculine or feminine, and that ultimately grants surgery on this basis.” The “transsexual empire” is thus a Trojan horse in the battle between the sexes, helping men to seduce unsuspecting women, or women who ought to know better, to join forces with their oppressors." (continues)

www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

lanadelgrey · 04/03/2020 21:53

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/04/differing-perspectives-on-transgender-rights

It’s worth reading to the end

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 04/03/2020 22:36

Thank you for that reminder about Janice Raymond’s amazing work, R0wantrees. It’s extraordinary how prescient she was, how she saw it all even back than. Gives the lie to the whole “true trans” narrative completely and utterly.

And fair play to Szasz for recognising the truth of it, too. I am convinced that the rise of transgenderism is, at root, a backlash against feminism: it’s extraordinary though to see someone articulating that back in 1979 already.

We have gone backwards indeed. A long, long way backwards.

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 23:13

Raymond was discussed by a PP.
Apologies for not quote referencing it.

I do remember being really struck by Thomas Szasz's review the first time I read it. I hadn't thought about it for a while.

zanahoria · 04/03/2020 23:25

The Guardian finally publishes a variety of views on this subject thus opening up the debate, I guess better late than never.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 04/03/2020 23:58

Oh yes, thank you ThePurported for bringing it up first - I didn’t read all the way back and R0’s post just caught my eye. Great work both of you.

Goosefoot · 05/03/2020 01:28

Um, I think identity disorders in general are considered real mental illnesses or disorders. And no, you can't necessarily tell by giving someone a health check that they have a mental illness.

Now arguably being a "transexual" is a description of the treatment or what might be the result of taking a particular course of action, rather than of a mental condition itself, but that still doesn't mean it doesn't exist as a phenomena, clearly it does. But are we seriously saying that sex dysphoria doesn't exist at all at this point? I think that's a very difficult position to take and one that many (most) gender skeptical therapists would disagree with.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 01:45

I think GD is a symptom. I accept that people are genuinely distressed by their sexed body.

I don’t think anyone is born in the wrong body or has a different sexed brain to their genitalia:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 10:17

BMJ response published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490

R0wantrees · 05/03/2020 10:29

But are we seriously saying that sex dysphoria doesn't exist at all at this point? I think that's a very difficult position to take and one that many (most) gender skeptical therapists would disagree with.

"Dysphoria is a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation."

As soon as these difficult feelings are labelled as 'gender dysphoria' or 'sex dysphoria' an individual, already distressed, is tunnelled towards a very limited/limiting explanation & treatment/support options.

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 21:51

There's been a letter to the Guardian in protest, full list of signatories on PinkNews (but we probably don't want to send them traffic).

So, WebArchive link here:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200305121745/www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/05/the-guardian-anti-trans-editorial-feminists-letter-suzanne-moore-transphobia/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200305121745/www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/05/the-guardian-anti-trans-editorial-feminists-letter-suzanne-moore-transphobia/

GCAcademic · 05/03/2020 23:18

There’s also a petition in support of Suzanne Moore. Please sign if you can:

www.change.org/p/guardian-news-and-media-support-suzanne-moore-of-the-guardian-for-championing-women-s-rights

NoCureForLove · 05/03/2020 23:39

Have signed. Really cheering to watch the numbers rising before your eyes on the petition page!

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 05/03/2020 23:43

Thanks for that, GC

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 05/03/2020 23:43

Yes indeed NoCure!

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 05/03/2020 23:48

Signed

RubyViolet · 06/03/2020 00:01

Signed

SparklingLime · 06/03/2020 09:57

Signed in support of Suzanne Moore. Honestly, needing a petition after a moderate, factual article!

Justhadathought · 06/03/2020 10:12

Signed in support of Suzanne Moore. Honestly, needing a petition after a moderate, factual article

Absolutely. Radical transgenderism is the straw the broke the camel's back of identity politics. The absolute apotheosis of this particular brand of madness.

Violetparis · 06/03/2020 10:21

I think The Guardian have just stopped my comments on their site all together. My comments used to show for a little while then get taken down, but now they don't show at all. I wonder how many others have been blocked all together too. My comments were always very polite and non aggressive, it's Orwellian, and it's coming from a liberal, left newspaper.

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 10:26

Blocking commentators? You could almost say 'blacklisted' How very liberal of them.

Violetparis · 06/03/2020 10:33

Yes, 'blacklisted' is a better word, my most controversial comment would have been something like 'what about women's rights'.

MondayQuestion · 06/03/2020 10:42

The Guardian has absolutely blacklisted my comments. I've been featured comment a few times before but in the last year my posts just disappear, not even posted and flagged.
This relates to the environment/climate change and overconsumption/population. You're simply not allowed to suggest that having almost 8 billion humans on the planet may not be ideal, and that providing education and family planning to women around the world should be a priority.

TheRealMcKenna · 06/03/2020 10:42

❌ blacklisted
✔️ de-listed

It’s Titania Friday.