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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Suzanne Moore- The Guardian on Selina Todd

326 replies

Ontheblackhill · 02/03/2020 19:04

Presumably you have all seen this......

www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/women-must-have-the-right-to-organise-we-will-not-be-silenced

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
TheRealMcKenna · 04/03/2020 13:25

It turned out that the mental illness that causes this will accept nothing but complete capitulation, which means accepting AND proclaiming...

Exactly. And for those of us with adolescent relatives who are trans, thou shalt not question the medical transitioning AT ALL or you will be called a bigot and compared to Evangelical Christians using ‘conversion’ therapy.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 13:36

Yep. It’s very cult-like. A chirpy ‘You do you’ is enough to get you exiled for heresy.

Lamahaha · 04/03/2020 14:24

Apologies if this was posted earlier...I haven't read the whole thread. The resignation was actually a while ago but this tw felt like throwing a tantrum at the editorial meeting:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/dfgdfgdfgfd_uk_5e5e7444c5b6732f50e8d509?guccounter=2

Goosefoot · 04/03/2020 14:34

It turned out that the mental illness that causes this will accept nothing but complete capitulation

To me this seems more a feature of the modern trans movement built around gender though. I know a couple transexuals who came out of the time when there was a lot involved in changing sex legaly and socially and they don't really seem like that at all.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 15:14

Yes and no Goosefoot I certainly personally know some reasonable older trans people but if you look at my most recent posts on the ‘Court’ thread, the impossible demands of being exactly the same as the opposite sex for all purposes, no exemptions, ever, was the aim of transactivists at least 20 years ago, by people who are in their 50s and 60s now.

marytuda · 04/03/2020 15:17

Yes its definitely a recent thing. Old school transsexuals had a far more grown-up understanding of what was going on - inside themselves and out and about with the rest of us.

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 15:17

To me this seems more a feature of the modern trans movement built around gender though. I know a couple transexuals who came out of the time when there was a lot involved in changing sex legaly and socially and they don't really seem like that at all.

AngryAttackKittens wrote:
"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 15:25

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/27/trans-women-discussed-trans-rights-on-the-bbc-45-years-ago-heres-what-it-looked-like/amp/

I will try and find the whole tv show from this article when I get home.
I watched it a while back and it starts out kinda reasonable and descends into utter batshittery by the end.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 15:30

I think the main reason the batshittery is more visible now is because they rebranded it as not being a mental illness and transitioners no longer have the same level of psychiatric supervision.

There were always some who had been ‘gatekept’ from transition by professionals and gone it alone through black market hormones and foreign surgeries, of course, but now gatekeeping is minimal to nonexistent and I think we are witnessing the results of that.

marytuda · 04/03/2020 15:32

Okay - not all old school transsexuals. And it was just an impression. But the fact that being an adult transwoman took a lot more effort and determination than it appears to now must have filtered out the more obviously frivolous . . who were more likely to just cross-dress in private than 'come out'. I'm guessing.

TheRealMcKenna · 04/03/2020 15:39

Here we go - 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/mar/03/toby-young-white-men-free-speech-whip-universities

What has the fact that Toby Young is white got to do with anything?

R0wantrees · 04/03/2020 15:47

DuLang Its here on a FWR thread:

OP Sunkisses wrote:

"BBC Open Door programme 45 years ago on transsexuals - a real jaw dropper'

I did a search of Mumsnet and couldn't see any other posts about this extraordinary 1973 discussion show which was produced by transsexuals 45 years ago where they were given free-reign, free from editorial control. Four transsexuals are joined by a psychologist and an MP.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

Where to start? Maybe with the show's producer and host, Della Aleksander, who is the most bizarre of all the participants. Della starts by claiming that a "chastened and wiser" Adolf Hitler and Queen Victoria have said, through a medium, that "there was a special role for me, in the reconstruction following a world wide collapse in 1978-79". Della also claims to have been sent from another world where the sexes don't exist and that transsexuals are the only model of a "higher race"! Della also claims to have founded the neo-Nazi sounding European National Movement in South Africa whilst serving in the Army there (I couldn't find any info on them, but they sound well dodgy to me).

Della also seems utterly confused, mis-using the terms 'bisexual' and 'intersex', and appearing to think these words mean transsexual, and that the appearance of nipples on a man means 'we are all transsexuals'. Della is, thankfully, corrected by the psychologist at 33.53 mins in who states that it is important to use the correct terminology, but Della wafts such trivialities away by saying "I don't want to get bogged down in medical questions". The MP, Leo Abse, argues against the 'trans umbrella' (before this term was invented by Stonewall etc) at 36 mins in.

There is clear evidence of autogynephilia (AGP - the sexual fetish of a man loving himself as a woman) at 33.23 when Della says the "sex act" is a "transsexual one", as "one attempts to become and absorb the beloved".

At 26 mins in one of the speakers, Rachel Bowen (the working class northern transsexual with dark hair), says that having a female birth certificate is a "status symbol". Another of the transsexuals, Laura Pralet, at 27 mins preposterously claims that "we are not a minority", and "I have never been a homosexual", even though Laura lives with and has married a man. Laura also says their husband is never happier when they are "in the kitchen", and at 31 mins in says they wanted to become a woman as "women have the best deal anyway".

It's absolutely fascinating and well worth a watch"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327193-BBC-Open-Door-programme-45-years-ago-on-transsexuals-a-real-jaw-dropper

Interestingly according to Wiki (usual caveats apply), Della Aleksander was one of the inspirations to the schoolgirl Stephen Whittle who went on to form Press For Change:

"It was during his time at Withington Girls' School that he started reading medical books.[7] He knew he was romantically attached to other girls at school – he never told them, and so his love was not reciprocated – but he also knew that he was sexually attracted to men. On top of that was a strong desire to be a man, to grow a beard and to have a hairy chest. He had read articles about people like Della Aleksander and April Ashley who had had a sex change. In 1972, at the age of 16, whilst visiting his doctor about a sore throat he read about a trans man"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Whittle

RoyalCorgi · 04/03/2020 15:52

I've posted above re. my perfectly factual comment that got deleted on yesterday's.

There is something deeply ironic about deleting comments on an article about freedom of speech. I've been wondering for some time - but haven't actually done anything - whether the Guardian readers' editor would respond to complaints about moderation? Or is it not their remit?

GCAcademic · 04/03/2020 15:54

McKenna - that’s the article I was referring to earlier. There were lots of comments mentioning Selina and other feminist academics, lots saying that absolutely is a problem with free speech in universities. They got a lot of upvotes. The Guardian deleted them all, leaving only the authoritarian hard-left comments that agreed with the author. And they have the nerve to claim that their moderation is not political.

Sexnotgender · 04/03/2020 16:09

It’s certainly rattling cages. There’s some weird comments coming in now, mostly replies to sensible comments.

TheRealMcKenna · 04/03/2020 16:17

GCAcademic yes, the comments pretty much all agree that Toby Young just wants to punish universities for not adhering to his ultra-right fascists beliefs.

EverardDigby · 04/03/2020 16:21

There was The Times case where an ex-employee took them to court relating to "transphobic" reporting, www.thetimes.co.uk/article/28f96422-c51a-11e9-9b38-47c3100effef?shareToken=1ba0d02d4b4b7b7598bab01cc284e1c5

Though they lost.

GCAcademic · 04/03/2020 16:31

I’ve just deleted my Guardian account. Their moderation is, frankly, sinister, and I don’t trust them with my personal details. If I sign up again, it will be with a throwaway email account. This is the second account I’ve deleted. The first had a female username and I changed it to to one which suggested I was male, to cut down on the very aggressive replies I got from male posters. The difference after I transed myself was very telling indeed.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 16:51

Just plopping all these old school relevant links but it’s a bit of a derail so I may repost them elsewhere later!

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4

vimeo.com/ondemand/queensatheart

player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-what-am-i-1980-online

vimeo.com/ondemand/whatsexami

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-c9ZnpMppHQ

m.youtube.com/watch?v=RAmODy8MujE

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 16:57

Re Guardian comment moderation, maybe we should all make some new accounts and use them specifically for a project making sensible comments and documenting every instance of deletion
Bet we could get a journalist interested.

Clymene · 04/03/2020 18:12

Thanks DuLang. I would like to watch that programme. I think to understand the present, we need to understand the past. For example, it seems that a lot of the drive to push young people into blockers and early hormones is from older transitioners who wish they passed better. The fact that they transitioned after having families and a successful career bolstered by their male status seems to be glossed over.

(Also my iPad has started capitalising Male. Like that. Why?!)

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 04/03/2020 18:16

I agree. Late transitioners are retconning their pasts - I doubt they would really want to swap the ability to orgasm for early onset osteoporosis!

Male is a place name, so nothing sinister, thankfully! In the Maldives, I think?

BritneyPeedOnALadybug · 04/03/2020 18:43

The place name is Malé. My iPhone does it too - Male

ThePurported · 04/03/2020 19:35

Re old school vs modern trans movement, this article by Julie Bindel on the prescience of Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire is a fascinating read unherd.com/2019/04/the-transsexual-empire/

"Forty years ago Raymond wrote, “Masculine behaviour is notably obtrusive”. She was referring to the level of notoriety achieved by the trans woman Renee Richards “in the wake of the Tennis Week Open”. Richards fought to compete on a level playing field with natal women. The New York Times review of TTE read: “The transsexual propagandists claim to transform ‘women trapped in men’s bodies’ into ‘real’ women and want them to be accepted socially as females (say, in professional tennis).”

Not only was The Transsexual Empire prescient – so too was the response to the book. Raymond experienced the kind of backlash that is endured by anyone who questions trans women’s rights today. Martina Navratilova was hounded on Twitter after she wrote a piece examining transgender participation in women’s sport; upon the publication of TTE, the transsexual lobby accused Raymond of bigotry and said the book constituted ‘hate speech’. Navratilova was thrown out of an advocacy group for LGBTQ sportspeople, which accused her of ‘transphobia’; Raymond was turned down for grants, reported to her university and publicly harassed and threatened with violence on a regular basis.

With the advent of the internet, a cesspool of vitriol aimed at anyone who dissents from transgender orthodoxies has gone viral. Since I first wrote about the issue I have come in for the same treatment as Raymond, as have scores of other women."

"Four decades ago, Raymond saw how in a society obsessed with gender rules which determine how women and men should behave, that it would become easier and more acceptable to change bodies rather than behaviour. Did she also foresee how aggressive and demanding trans activists would eventually become, where ‘mis-gendering’ a trans person can be treated as a ‘hate crime’ and reported to police?

“Yes” she tells me. “I always suspected that transsexualism would change women’s lives in a way that would attempt to define us out of existence.”

Clymene · 04/03/2020 19:49

Wow that wasn't even on my radar when I first became a feminist 30 years ago! It's weird - the only people I ever hear mention Raymond very much now are TRAs.

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