Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

[CaveMum]

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

So six male voices & three female voices discussing women's sex based rights on BBC Moral Maze?

I haven't listened yet, but wanted to get an overview here first!

I'm so glad to hear that Michael Portillo is an ally. I had hopes. I remember seeing him on a documentary YEARS ago in which he took the place of a single mum in a family struggling with poverty. I don't remember the details but I recall that he was sensitive and empathetic, and that completely took me by surprise.

(Quick google reveals it was called My Week in the Real World - snapshot of opinions from the time (2203) here! news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3195040.stm )

Absinthe - yes I saw that too! He was quite lovely on it, and I remember it being a turning point on my opinion of him.

So six male voices & three female voices discussing women's sex based rights on BBC Moral Maze?

And two of the women were ambivalent, it was only Kiri really. Shocking.

I thought it interesting that both Michael Portillo & Graham Linehan deferred to male TS opinions to back up their position.

Bit pissed off that there were 2 threads about this at the same time. Wish we could find a way to coordinate when things like this were going on as a lot of points were replicated ad as it's so fast moving, some things missed. Not sure how, maybe check to see if there's already a thread about something before starting a new one, and join that?

Portillo had a good reputation as a minister.

He’s also friends with Diane Abbott I believe. Maybe he can have a word with her. She has not said much lately, I think because she was deemed to be a bit of a liability, but there’s just so much competition for the role of Chief Liability in the Labour Party these days she may get to make a comeback. Sure she said some TWAW stuff but I don’t believe for a second she believes that whereas Dawn Butler seems to believe everything she’s told for £15,000.

I find it encouraging that this is being openly discussed. That women's rights and concerns are being given air time. I can't imagine this lineup and this discussion a year ago. So, progress.

Would have been nice to have at least equal representation for those born female.

Am disappointed that the only definition I heard for woman was either to do with lived experience or family resemblance. I apparently look like my father (at least my hair and eyes do). Doesn't make me a man.

I am a woman because of my biology. Not difficult.

What I would like to see from prominent males allies in this discussion next, is for some concerted agreement to stop appearing when there are perfectly capable, and articulate higher profile women who could make these arguments with significant authority.

If you actually want to amplify our voices, erstwhile blokes - do so! If you have, or have ever had a penis, say to the broadcaster "I'm glad you're interested in women's rights. I want to commend this very eloquent woman to you as a guest."

Walk the walk, gentlemen.

Portillo was brilliant. Not a sentence that I ever expected to write.

Kiri did really well, I thought. She was clear and confident.

Glinner was excellent.

Jane Fae's contributions were easily dismissed. Rev Mann sounded angry towards the end. I actually found Mann's contributions quite upsetting. The confident appropriation, lack of empathy and regard for women was obvious. Radio is an excellent medium for presenting the reality of TW as a subset of males.

zebra I was afraid I'd been labouring under a false impression all these years and had misremembered! Looking forward to listening tomorrow

I've taken the time to watch some of Rev Mann's personal contributions to Christian thinking on You Tube and it's very impertinent to God. It's as if the Rev thinks that they can personally see into God's purpose for humanity and that that purpose is to embrace extreme identity politics.

Mann is part of the progressive end of the current iteration of Christianity, and I find it telling that in my experience, that part of church has been 100% the easiest to fall to TRA ideology. I've spent quite some time pondering why, and I will no doubt spend more. Especially when you see the simmering misogyny popping through the woo gender bullshit - with actual women in that stable, it's often a pendulum swing thing; they are reacting strongly against traditional theology which has been a cover for naked bigotry. I always hope they will swing back a little once they see that for the men involved, it's basically a religious mirror for the faux-left WokeBro phenomena - an excuse for deeply sexist, misogynist males to vent their contempt for women and need to control them while maintaining a veneer of respectable, progressive ideas.

And, having spent some time looking at Mann's youtube vids, I can say they are a tolerably good poet, but good lord, the subject matter of 'Working it out' and 'Coming out' are pretty stunning examples of a focus on externals and that simmering contempt for women. Plus other stuff usually shorthanded to three letters that we often find ourselves deleted for acknowledging, so I won't mention. But by all means look it up for yourself.

What a disappointment. A complete waste of time. I suspect if you aren't up to date with the arguements around this, you would have got to the end of this programme none the wiser.

Its such a vital issue and somehow they think it okay for people with no knowledge or badly briefed ideas to somehow get to grips with it.

And sorry to say the fact that women are a protected characteristic because the discrimination they face is because of the biological fact of being born female.

All that piffling round the edges of the issue drove me over the top, so ended up shouting at the radio (actually catch up) about how the issue had become some sort of philosophical debate. If fact the person who wrote the hate pledge that is the one Labour is supposed to sign up to seem to go out of the way to be all whimsical. Totally effective misdirection.

And then Jane Fae's long suffering sighs.

If this programme had been made 2 years ago, would have been sort of acceptable.

But now, with the reality of know the trans agenda is to get ride of sex based rights, actual physical violence against GC women and the no platforming, and we all supposed to pretend we can just have a nice little dinner party chat?

WtF???????????????????

(and yes like others, depressed to know that it was Michael Portillo asking the most pertinent questions)

Seriously (sorry really worked up about this) would they have had the equivilent discussion based on the claims of Rachael Dolezal about white people identifying as Black and where to find a safe space for them.

Yet again women are disrespected, not just by men but by other (natal) women.

The introduction was good (loved the cheeky reference to a BBC video which tells kids that there are 100+ genders), except this:

"--- The main women’s group involved says it’s only concerned with protecting hard-won women’s rights, particularly women’s changing rooms, refuges, prisons, which could, and in many cases are, open to male-bodied people. Some, even, with records of male sexual offences."

For heaven's sake, just say males, including some rapists!

I feel like this whole shitshow needs some kind of a Danny Dyer moment. Get Germaine Greer to re-enact it, replace Brexit with 'gender' and David Cameron with, I dunno, Ruth Hunt.

I find it encouraging that this is being openly discussed. That women's rights and concerns are being given air time. I can't imagine this lineup and this discussion a year ago. So, progress.

I've just finished listening in on catch up and my thoughts are pretty much as tilder articulated as above.

As for Portillo - leaving politics has been the making of him. There's irony for you....he's actually someone (now) I could vote for....(so says a long time now exLabour member/voter).

I've spent quite some time pondering why, and I will no doubt spend more.

Because that stream of Christianity is more or less identical to individualist progressive liberalism, they have largely ejected real theological thought, and they have absolutely rejected asceticism, or a deeper understanding of suffering.

It was a shame that the Kiera Bell case wasn't mentioned re puberty blockers bring a little pause.

family resemblance = blatant sexism.

Kiri alluded to 3rd spaces but unfortunately to an idle listener tuning in with no prior knowledge, the words need to be explicit.

Quite a few a cross on twitter I noticed as they feel there were missed opportunities.

I'm in the middle; at least twice it was commented that it was great the debate was happening on the MM as it's such a difficult one that gets shut down. So I'm glad it's a first step in my opinion.

Things were said that simply haven't been said on air before.

Much more could be said and pointed out. Especially education and children and puberty blockers. And wider opinions included.

Not sure if this has already been put on here. Searched "moral maze" on BBC Sounds app. www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000fgsp

The awesome pombear is working on a transcript

Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transcript www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3827771-Moral-Maze-Radio-4-8pm-19-Feb-Transcript

family resemblance = blatant sexism.

Yes definitely.

Mann also meant, I think, 'family resemblance' in the sense that family members have many traits and experiences in common as a group but are not identical. Rather than just appearance.

Mann believes that they share an experience of womanhood with women if not the biology. And yet oddly insists that Mann is a lesbian, something for which female biology is a prerequisite.

I think that the 'family resemblance' that Mann notes is explained by our common humanity. This would also fit much better into a Christian theological framework. Mann has no experience of womanhood but can speak with authority on their experience of being a TW.