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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

373 replies

CaveMum · 19/02/2020 06:41

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

OP posts:
FleetsumNLangCleg · 19/02/2020 21:09

Hate the use of CIS on this program

I am not a cis

theflushedzebra · 19/02/2020 21:09

We had an evenly balanced panel - 2 males, 2 females - but sadly kiri tunks was the only born female among the witnesses.... so yet again, women's voices under-represented. Very pleased that they did have glinner though, as I said, he made great points - but the other side? Two natal males tying to dictate about women's rights and spaces. So far, so usual.

Violetparis · 19/02/2020 21:10

Michael Portillo is trending on Twitter, I've onlynseen positive comments. He's on Question Time tomorrow night, might actually watch it.

Winesalot · 19/02/2020 21:11

Actually I think Kiri mentioned third spaces. At least alluded to it.

FleetsumNLangCleg · 19/02/2020 21:12

Non binary witness claims a "broad base of support in the labour party", sure, but has he seen Twitter??? There are clearly issues #expelme

ArranUpsideDown · 19/02/2020 21:15

I am not a cis

On another thread I saw a phrase that would be a useful slogan:

Cisgendering in misgendering

Charley50 · 19/02/2020 21:15

Yes JF actually compared puberty blockers to ibuprofen.

AnyOldSpartabix · 19/02/2020 21:16

the enby just as a misogynist.

And also falsely believes most people agree with him, when the reality is that very few people outside their bubble do. Saying most women wouldn’t agree with Woman’s Place. I bet most women would look at their aims and would agree without even having to think about it as their aims are not remotely contentious unless you look at them through a super-transphobia lens.

AnotherLass · 19/02/2020 21:18

I know that everyone else seems to feel very positive about this but I'm going to vent for a minute because I am SCREAMING

Yes Graham and Kiri did pretty well under the circumstances, but there was so much they needed to say that they didn't. They needed to talk about Yaniv, about the desistance rates in untreated kids, about Stonewall's definition of "transphobia" being not believing in someone's gender identity. And more than anything else, about the abuse, and the violence, and the intimidation - bomb threats, for fucks sake! Someone needs to go on the national media and tell people what is really going on, and they still did not do that, not really.

Sorry I don't mean to be critical I was very impressed with how Graham dealt with the Nazi thing. I'm just so frustrated

Oh and Jane Fae obviously has psychopathy/ NPD. I know because I have known someone with it. And I know very well that combination of charm and constant, glib lying. God it makes my skin crawl.

Winesalot · 19/02/2020 21:21

I felt that sadly it felt that there was a lot of tap dancing around questions. I felt that some of Kiri’s answers wandered off and I felt JF and TR obfuscated quite a lot. Sadly too much time was spent from Glinner having to defend himself from a briefing he obviously was not copied in on.

When all was said and done though, some excellent points were got in. And Kiri, Glinner and Michael all seemed to get in the ‘shutting down of debate’ theme and were good counterpoints to the feelz.

But the family resemblance reason for acceptance as a woman really bamboozled me. I was kinda incredulous at that one.

Melroses · 19/02/2020 21:22

I remember staying up just to watch him lose his seat years ago. I have to say though I've warmed to him since he became a TV presenter/commentator instead. He's done some good shows.

A high flying civil servant person I knew in the day, said he was good to work with and had respect. I still enjoyed that election night - Mr Twigg was it?

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 21:23

Jane Fae “Puberty blockers just pause puberty”

WPUK article by women experts working in the field.
'The 'Natal Female' Question'

Notes to the reader:

We write this as experienced clinicians who have worked in the sole NHS clinic for children and adolescents presenting with distress around their gender identity and their sexed bodies. We have chosen to publish here, rather than a peer reviewed journal, to ensure greater reach than those journals achieve. Also, we publish here in solidarity with WPUK who are currently in the receipt of defamatory accusations of transphobia – accusations also levelled at us.

(extract)
"The distress of their body seems to accrue over time for these young females; it was not primary. Socially transitioning might even have an iatrogenic effect on gender dysphoria as the body becomes a shameful secret that needs to be disavowed – we see embodied disconnection and alienation snowball. We are now hearing first hand from detransitioners that, had they not found this relatively novel way of understanding their difficulties (inevitably with the assistance of the internet) through the explanation of ‘trans’, the natural history would suggest they would find themselves living as lesbians. Furthermore, how they looked, lived and loved needed no apology.

In summary, in the clinic we witness this toxic collision of factors: a world telling these children they are ‘wrong’; they are not doing girlhood (or boyhood) correctly. They realise their nascent sexual desire is going to be problematic; they struggle in puberty because it is uncomfortable, weird and unpredictable (particularly heightened if they happen to be on the autistic spectrum).

In all of our good-willed attempts to be empathetic, to share the pain of these very young people, we adults must not lose sight of the risk of joining too closely with them. Their pain is real, their way of making sense of it may be helpful, but it may not. Adults and professionals have a duty to step back from the feelings, whether their own or the young people’s, in order to consider what is fundamentally in young people’s interests. Listening can occur at many levels. We can hear and respond to distress without agreeing with the other person’s explanation of why they are experiencing it.

The significant treatment decisions being made are adult decisions. It is simply not possible for a child or adolescent to conceptualise a loss of fertility or sexual pleasure before they have developed their adult body." (continues)
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

LayAllYourLoveOnMe · 19/02/2020 21:25

Kiri is building up experience. It takes practice

Serenschintte · 19/02/2020 21:26

Thank you for highlighting this. Listening now on catch up.
What struck me this evening that’s it so simple - born with a penis - you're a man. You will also have Male DNA and a Male Skeleton
Born with a vagina - you're a woman. You will also have female DNA and a female skeleton.
It’s really not that difficult. You as an adult may want to call yourself something else but just as if I had blue eyes as a child and then wore green contact lenses as an adult i can say I have green eyes but I still have blue ones.
I cannot stand being called a cis woman. I’m a woman.
Portillo has been good I think, so far.
It reminds me so much of anorexia but society doesn’t allow anorexics to starve to death.
Ultimately i wonder if the end game is to sweep away all differences between male and female. Make us all just the same. That would be a terrible thing. Our differences make and female are so wonderful and have served society well for so long

theflushedzebra · 19/02/2020 21:27

I think it comes from my very low expectations of the BBC, AnotherLass Wine

But yes, lots of un-corrected factual errors. I'm just listening again because my children kept interrupting Hmm (love them really) but Torr is either unaware of the exemptions under the Equality Act which mean women's spaces can exclude TW even with a GRC, in which case Torr was showing ignorance, or Torr was being less than truthful. Either way - ignorance or deception has no place on this type of programme.

Women DO have sex based rights, Torr, and Stonewall, and Labour, want to amend the Equality Act and take them away.

theflushedzebra · 19/02/2020 21:31

Torr, again also rejecting safeguarding frameworks as preventative of harm, and instead talking of protocols in place when someone has behaved badly - ie. the shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

VinandVigour · 19/02/2020 21:32

They should have asked Posie to be on there. She would have no fear of mentioning Yaniv, abuse, Truth about puberty blockers, etc.

But.... overall, who would have thought a year ago that this would be on the BBC.

FloralBunting · 19/02/2020 21:33

I'm going to listen tomorrow, can't tonight. But reading this has cheered me - sounds like Glinner has actually had the sense to listen and take on board where he cocked up on Newsnight, for a start.

And re: Portillo, I'm another who enjoyed his televised demise immensely, and yet has developed an increasing respect for him through his subsequent career, where he has proved himself eminently thoughtful and fair.

It pains me to focus on men to this extent, but I have no problems acknowledging that male ego leads them into stupid places, but some of them actually learn lessons and become wiser. It does happen!

And, I must ask, is anyone feeling a sense of something heavy lifting from them? Like we might have actually cracked the glass ceiling that has kept this so distorted and squashed? I mean, I know the battle will never end - the fat lady never actually sings, sadly - but I feel hope we can have a successful period of pushback. Feminism (the actual kind) has had a bit of hot housing in these straitened times, if we can actually break out, this could actually be a bit of a renaissance...

FleetsumNLangCleg · 19/02/2020 21:34

On the other thread: womaninblue Wed 19-Feb-20 21:04:22

"If someone at the BBC has written briefing notes that represent a negative view of Graham's opinions then that needs to be known and I hope Graham will take it up with the programme's producer."

Was there a fast one played, and Glinner was misrepresented? Should he have seen the notes but didn't?

FleetsumNLangCleg · 19/02/2020 21:36

Yes, FloralBunting, I am feeling it

Violetparis · 19/02/2020 21:37

It's so dispiriting though that there is absolutely no-one from the Labour Party speaking up for us.

R0wantrees · 19/02/2020 21:38

'Puberty blockers' are not like Ibuprofen & it is profoundly irresponsible to suggest they are.

October 2018 TransgenderTrend
“They Look Normal” – The Case For Puberty Blockers
(extract)
"Puberty blockers produce adults who pass: ‘They look beautiful, they look normal’, says Norman Spack, the doctor who treated Jackie Green and introduced the Dutch puberty blocker protocol to the US in 2007. Their future sex life is not something you really want to think about (they’re a child after all) and fertility seems far less important than simply keeping them alive. The 80% chance of desistance, you’ve heard, is a totally discredited figure (spoiler: it isn’t).

Faced with this difficult choice any parent might question the advice of the GIDS team. But if it was my child I would do some research. I would check every footnote and ask who benefited from every intervention on offer. I would reject simple or emotive answers and would have no patience with euphemism or bland reassurance. I would think hard because the future happiness of my child was in my hands.

And as I did so, I would become increasingly concerned about the experimental nature of the puberty blocker protocol and the quality of the evidence on which it is based. A review published in 2018 mentions ‘Low-quality evidence’ and ‘knowledge gaps’.

I would worry that puberty blockers have been used on human subjects before any animal studies (normally it is the other way round). And I would not like the fact that sheep whose puberty is temporarily blocked with these drugs have lasting mental effects: ‘How worried should we be by these findings when we prescribe puberty blockers?’ asked a gender clinician on hearing these findings last week at a conference at the Tavistock clinic. To which the researcher could only answer: ‘That’s a question for clinicians.’ Because GnRHa treatment produces ‘a drop of around 8 points’ in IQ, its value even as a treatment for precocious puberty in children is now being questioned.

I would find out that in MtF patients the loss of bone strength caused by puberty blockade is not fully compensated by later cross sex hormones. I would be concerned that the 22 year follow up on the first puberty blocked kid (who was FTM) reveals a handsome, professionally successful man who has been hindered from maintaining an intimate sexual relationship by shame at their constructed genitalia, (continues)

www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers-safe/

TinaBarrow · 19/02/2020 21:43

Floral
Very encouraging last paragraph, thanks

zanahoria · 19/02/2020 21:44

It is not possible to pause puberty, it is not possible to pause life, it can only be developed in another way. There are no rewinds.

Winesalot · 19/02/2020 21:45

I agree that everyone should all have the briefing notes. Particularly since Graham had to spend time on the back foot. But then, I thought he handled it well and got clear points across despite being interrupted and having others huff and sigh in the background.

I would have loved Kiri to have been able to mention the transwomen sex offence stats as compared to women sex offence stats. Hard to have everything on hand obviously as the actual impacts to women are broad and complicated.

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