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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

999 replies

RoyalCorgi · 16/02/2020 19:16

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

OP posts:
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13
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 00:17

I think lots of journalists browse MN looking for story leads both serious and not.

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 00:20

I did not know that some female prisoners were housed on the male estate

My understanding was that there was policy to allow this in the event that female estate was not able to manage the high levels risk a woman prisoner presented. Also that the 'women' prisoners held in male estate on that basis were male.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 17/02/2020 00:21

I did not know that some female prisoners were housed on the male estate, Isn't Joanna Dennehy in Bronzefield? So who are we talking about?

I think Rose West and Dennehy are the only living women with whole-life tariffs? And Hindley was sentenced that way but is dead now. West is in New Hall (womens).

Theoretically female prisoners needing category A status can be held in the male estate (in separate units) but it’s my understanding that there are none there at present, as all can be safely contained as ‘restricted’ status in closed female prisons.

So it’s entirely possible that if any ‘female’ prisoners are currently recorded as being held in the male estate, then they are legally female via a GRC, but not biologically female.

Male offending patterns do no change post transition, and those convicted of particularly heinous crimes and thus requiring category A status would not be able to transfer to female prisons, as maximum security is not available as part of the female estate.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 00:23

And indeed one could ask some questions about why maximum security isn't needed in the women's estate and very much is in the men's estate, and what that tells us about the wisdom of transferring male prisoners to the women's estate. If one hadn't already decided to do a woke impersonation of the Three Monkeys, that is.

WheresMyAlex · 17/02/2020 00:25

Fucking madness.

FloralBunting · 17/02/2020 00:28

Oooh, Kittens, it's so time for bed for me, I read your comment about Three Monkeys and was trying to work out how this was all connected to fantasy time travel and post apocalyptic dystopia (and it wasn't actually much of a stretch) but then I realized I was thinking of Twelve Monkeys and I really need to sleep...

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 00:30

Go to bed! I suppose we could add a few extra monkeys if you like, on could represent Layla Moran's soul viewing skills?

Absolutepowercorrupts · 17/02/2020 00:34

@Polynerd
www.womenprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php
If this link works then you'll find answers

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 00:37

I suppose we could add a few extra monkeys if you like, on could represent Layla Moran's soul viewing skills?

Nov 2018 James Kirkup Spectator:
'This MP has summed up everything wrong with the transgender debate'

(extract)

The second is about a short exchange between Mr Davies and Ms Moran, the Lib Dem MP for Oxford who is a former science teacher.

The exchange captures a great deal about this issue, which has excited strong feelings among some woman (and men).

Some of them are unhappy about rules allowing male-born people to ‘identify’ as women. They worry that doing so could compromise the female-only spaces that society has provided in recognition of the potential danger that male-bodied people pose to their safety and privacy. They argue that if, as a slogan suggests, ‘trans women are women’ and a trans woman is anyone who says they are a trans woman, then there is nothing to stop a male-born person with full male anatomy and malign intent entering female-only spaces. And that, they say, is a problem, because a male body (especially one guided by male socialisation) is always a potential threat to female bodies, female privacy, and female dignity.

Ms Moran has said she believes trans women are women. Mr Davies has said he believes that a person with a penis cannot be a woman.

Their exchange is here:

David T. C. Davies:

‘I hear what the hon. Lady is saying. May I bluntly ask her whether she would be happy sharing a changing room with somebody who was born male and had a male body?’

Layla Moran:

‘I believe that women are women, so if that person was a trans woman, I absolutely would. I just do not see the issue. As for whether they have a beard, which was one of the hon. Gentleman’s earlier comments, I dare say that some women have beards. There are all sorts of reasons why our bodies react differently to hormones. There are many forms of the human body. I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.’

And that, in a nutshell, is the transgender debate. Remember, Ms Moran, an intelligent and educated member of Parliament was speaking in a debate about laws that help determine how and whether people with female bodies can chose to separate themselves from people with male bodies. I’ll repeat her key observation again, just for clarity:

‘I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.’

Truly, Britain is a fortunate nation. This year really has demonstrated how lucky we are in the talents of our elected representatives"(continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

Absolutepowercorrupts · 17/02/2020 00:41

Didn't work, sorry

DuchessOfBeddington · 17/02/2020 00:41

”pitting women against woman”

Let’s rephrase this shall we...

Pitting women against men who think they are women

wellbehavedwomen · 17/02/2020 00:44

A comment on the Times story:

Rapists can choose to be incarcerated with men or women? Decisions, decisions....

In a nutshell.

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 00:48

Rapists can choose to be incarcerated with men or women? Decisions, decisions....

In a nutshell.

& child rapists can choose to be incarcerated with mothers or fathers.

Thingybob · 17/02/2020 02:26

One in fifty men in the male estate claim to identify as women

So Lisa Nandy would happily transfer an extra 1600 trans women to the female estate?

I don't doubt the statistic but can I ask where it comes from?

Thingybob · 17/02/2020 02:28

Oh I've found it

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

Lisa really hasn't thought this through

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 05:51

If a XY prisoner has had a sex change so no penis then they should be in female XX prison

One of the most chilling parts of the Megan Murphy interview with the woman who has been in prison with TW is that there was one TW who had had an operation I believe but still abused women . (Sorry I cant remember her name)

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 06:02

Ha yes Heather Mason.

Posting again as it's so important.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/02/2020 07:27

And why is she always talking about the 1 trans person in her constituency

I know, I was shouting at the screen. This isn't about you and that one person, Lisa. This is about half the population of this country including some of the most vulnerable. If you can't put your personal feelings aside and be fair to them, then get out of this leadership race.

EverardDigby · 17/02/2020 07:45

ExhaustedGrinch Thanks That was very powerful and is exactly the sort of thing that politicians need to hear to make it clear to them exactly what this means. I have a history of childhood abuse, DV and mental health issues too, and a trauma-conditioned response to men, in my 20s I couldn't even bear to sit next to a man on the bus etc. let alone any of the more personal things such as healthcare. I don't think people understand this, they just think of women like themselves, or maybe don't understand how deeply this is conditioned into our neural pathways and isn't just about "being nice".

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 07:53

But there's no awareness of the safeguarding around that.

We know nothing about this child and I fully agree that support and appointments for these yp are not enough .

But she's no understanding of the facts around trans identifying yp's care. That the majority desist. That stating this young person is unequivocally a girl potentially leads this yp to a road of surgery etc. What yp and what set of parents are going to think that potentially this child could end up with other options if their case has been used by a politician like this? That they're gay? That they're just GNC?

One of the things mentioned by the detransitioners is the difficulty with saying that they aren't 100% sure when surgery dates are set. It's difficult and potentially embarrassing when so much hero worship and support has occurred.

It's far too nuanced a situation to use as a political bargaining tool.

I do note she said at the end of the piece that she isn't always right and may have it wrong, and is always willing to change her mind.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/02/2020 08:14

I do note she said at the end of the piece that she isn't always right and may have it wrong, and is always willing to change her mind.

Then how about she comes on to do an MN webchat specifically about these issues and requests that there is no censorship. I'll believe it then.

niceberg · 17/02/2020 08:15

Extraordinary. No time spent in her answer on substantially addressing women's safety in prison. At all. Doesn't give a shit. Or too stupid to get it. Either way depressing as hell that this is what passes as potential opposition leadership material.

TorkTorkBam · 17/02/2020 08:20

Everyone locally will know who is Nandy's transgirl muse. What if that teenager, like most trans teenagers wants to detrans? The child's realises their distressed feelings have a source other than being a girl trapped in a boy's body. Nandy has made it incredibly difficult for that child to make balanced major life decisions.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 08:25

It's like Jazz Jennings on a smaller scale. How does the kid row back if they decide they want to after being made into a poster child for the movement and feted by powerful people? No parent should allow their child to be used that way.