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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

999 replies

RoyalCorgi · 16/02/2020 19:16

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

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13
FloralBunting · 18/02/2020 00:19

I am so amused by male pattern behaviour being displayed while outlining what feminism is supposed to be as an attempted slap down to women repeatedly saying no. No wonder Julia Long smiles so widely. You really don't have to work too hard to make the case. Just maintain a firm boundary and watch the negotiation, frustration, and petulance on display as a reaction stir so many women into recognition.

Datun · 18/02/2020 00:21

so do try to tone down the sense of superiority.

"By agreeing?"

No, by fondly imagining that your multicultural life experience is in any way unique.

Do you actually read replies here and connect them to your comments?

BatShite · 18/02/2020 00:23

5zeds

Apologies. I do know that autistic children are being dragged into this madness also, and that it appears the huge majority of 'trans' children are autistic (or lesbian) which should obviously be looked into as its child abuse on a massive scale. Self ID I feel is a hugely different topic to child 'transitioning'. But I didn't mean to offend, so sorry.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 18/02/2020 00:25

I can’t imagine many of Robin’s colleagues would feel able to express any dissenting opinions or worries about consent, even if they wanted to, y’know, considering where Robin works an’ all.

www.oldsquare.co.uk/news-and-media/news/old-square-acting-in-two-prominent-cases-involving-transgender-issues

5zeds · 18/02/2020 00:28

Batshite I’m not offended (just often pedantic Blush). I do think it’s important that we recognise the damage being done to all in this situation. I’d like to see Transwoman (Or indeed Transman) be enough of a descriptor, with no need to try and hide. Anything else is disrespectful and feeds damage and lack of pride in oneself.

TorkTorkBam · 18/02/2020 00:30

Next we will all stop flying, stop using GPS, stop using words like "global" and phrases like "all around the world" as a compromise to help flat earthers avoid reality. To be kind. Only women and girls though. Men keep all their stuff. Obviously.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 00:31

What if my plane identifies as not producing any greenhouse gases?

BatShite · 18/02/2020 00:31

No problems. I agree that I don't get why 'transwoman' is not enough, have always said that. Transwomen are transwomen. To try and shove them into the 'woman box' is surely an attempt to deny ones transness, whi;lst we are told its tomething to be proud of. And its a huge part of someones identity surely.

TorkTorkBam · 18/02/2020 00:33

Depends. Can you educate the climate into not letting that CO2 warm the planet? Or at least ban scientist bigots from measuring the temperature? Or maybe we modify all thermometers to measure the temperature as 1 degree cooler. Good compromise.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 00:38

I'm going to c/p from another thread because I'm lazy.

There is no space or service in which it would be appropriate to include transwomen where it would not also be appropriate to include men. If a space is for women, it is not appropriate to include adult males. I cannot think of a single situation in which I would want to exclude males who identify as men but not males who identify as women. If I'm OK with having males there then I'm OK with having males there, if not then not. There is no special "well this one is a bit feminine so it's OK" exception.

I realize that this is difficult for some transwomen to hear as it utterly fails to validate their sense of self, but it remains the perspective of a great many women nonetheless.

5zeds · 18/02/2020 00:45

I realize that this is difficult for some transwomen to hear as it utterly fails to validate their sense of self, but it remains the perspective of a great many women nonetheless. I agree but I think that’s because they are wrapping their sense of self in “woman” not “transwoman”.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 00:52

Which is why their sense of self is so fragile - it's harder to maintain a sense of self when what you're attempting to convince yourself of is not, technically speaking, true.

The attempt to outsource this internal conflict to the general public and force them to manage the cognitive dissonance for you is deeply unfair to everyone else involved.

FloralBunting · 18/02/2020 01:03

I think that’s because they are wrapping their sense of self in “woman” not “transwoman"

Who can say for sure? Further, what would be the point? I have plenty of time for the people I know who understand material reality and muddle through despite their unhappiness with it, be they men or women, trans, teens, elderly, disabled, whatever.

I don't have any respect for people who insist on pushing aside the rights and protections of women, just so they can feel better in whatever way they define that.

If you do something objectively bad (and putting women in danger is bad) then you should be judged on that, and while your motives might provide some mitigation, your victims are under no obligation to assist in help you work through whatever it is that brought you to the place where you think it is acceptable to to such things.

Which is a long sentence simply to say again - the motivations for a male person to want to access women's provision are window dressing. Irrelevant decoration. I genuinely don't really care why someone cannot take no for an answer. I have quite enough shit of my own to solve.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/02/2020 01:07

Exactly, which is why in my lazily copies post I said that it makes no difference to me how the male person wanting access to women's spaces sees themselves. Either the space is unisex or it is not. The reasons why a particular male person wants access to a woman's space make no difference to me at all, and is in any case not something that would be discernable to others unless they have telepathic powers.

Spaces are either unisex or single sex. There is no need for "kind of single sex but if someone of the opposite sex is insistent enough and threatens to hurt you/themselves if you don't let them in then you have to let them in or you're a nasty awful person" spaces.

pallisers · 18/02/2020 01:09

(like Eire)

if you live in the UK and call IRELAND Eire then your mulitcultural upbringing is dead on arrival (or non-existent more likely). Seriously. you are a UK barrister. Where is your education? Do you know what every single irish person thinks of you when you use that incorrect word for our country??? Literal violence.

5zeds · 18/02/2020 01:14

Which is a long sentence simply to say again - the motivations for a male person to want to access women's provision are window dressing. Irrelevant decoration. I genuinely don't really care why someone cannot take no for an answer. I have quite enough shit of my own to solve. I understand the sentiment but I doubt “solutions” are going to miraculously be reached by the very group causing your discomfort. If you bow out of the process it is less likely to be resolved in a way that pleases you.

theflushedzebra · 18/02/2020 01:15

Hers's what one audience member had to say about the situation in Ireland, at a WPUK meeting:

"I'm Irish, although I've lived here for 30yrs. I have 6 sisters, we're fortunate we've never needed a shelter for refuge, none of us have ever been in prison, but I'd just like to say from an Irish woman's perspective, the general public were not consulted about Self ID, only trans organisations were consulted about the legislation.

It went in, as Anne says, under the radar, my own sister wasn't aware of it until I told her I was coming to this meeting tonight and had a discussion about how Ireland operates.

It's interesting to me that Self-ID was brought in 3yrs ago, and it's only this year that women are actually allowed to have abortions. For the last 3yrs, Ireland has been a country where a man can self ID into a refuge but interestingly not the priesthood. A man can self ID into any sphere, except where it affects men directly themselves. But it's only this year, in the last couple of months, that women have actually been allowed to have abortions in their own country.

Why is it that men's access to women's spaces was prioritised over women's health and women's rights?"

Indeed. I wonder.

BingBongSong · 18/02/2020 01:19

Was that Standing for Women in Manchester, Zebra? I think I remember that comment. Powerful in it's honesty - Ireland allowed a man to self ID into womanhood before they allowed a woman to have an abortion.

FloralBunting · 18/02/2020 01:19

I'm sorry? You think I need to find a solution to get certain males to stop demanding access to female spaces and rights?

I mean, sure, I agree those males and their co religionists are not going to find another solution. That's why I campaign to reach other women and try and shake institutions out of their capture.

So, erm, not 'bowing out'. Saying no, and feeling no obligation to help out the people threatening us.

theflushedzebra · 18/02/2020 01:25

BingBong Song

Sorry, it was posie's Standing for Women/WNNT thing:

The question starts at 1 hour 24, with a question and Anne Ruzylo answering, and then the Irish audience member.

DeRigueurMortis · 18/02/2020 01:35

Ireland allowed a man to self ID into womanhood before they allowed a woman to have an abortion.

And it's not illegal that Transmen are not allowed to be Catholic Priests....nor how any laws re: primo geniture wrt titles/estates are "compromised" by legitimising transmen.

Nor in England that certain men's only clubs are quite content to have a "female" member (pun intended) as long as they joined with their "male member" intact.

Odd isn't it?

BingBongSong · 18/02/2020 01:42

Zebra Smile

That evening was pivotal for me in terms of my understanding. Anne, Jean, Sweary, Julia and Posie. Awesome line-up. And on the night that Leeds WPUK was cancelled Angry.

I reiterated Sweary's "fuck kind" comment to a friend tonight. She looked a bit surprised but she gets it and wants to come to any future events.

5zeds · 18/02/2020 01:55

I have my own shit to solve, seemed to imply you weren’t able/willing or particularly interested in actively finding a solution. I don’t think you as an individual need to find any solutions.

wellbehavedwomen · 18/02/2020 01:56

@RobinMoiraWhite, you know, reading the comments here, it's really clear that there is no true communication. And one of the problems, from this side of the divide, is that you do not have the lived experience of growing up female. On the contrary, you have the lived experience of growing up male. And that seems to mean that you genuinely don't understand quite how much you genuinely don't understand.

If women don't want a male in a rape crisis centre, it is not because their voice is too deep.

Some transwomen understand the unease male bodies can cause in female spaces, but I have encountered very few. You - the general you, meaning all male born people - have simply not been socialised to understand that. You have no concept at all of the energy women have to expend to try to keep safe from male predation, from earliest girlhood on. It becomes part of who we are. Instinctive at a muscle memory level. And if women deviate from that, and the worst happens, we are blamed accordingly for failing to be the perfect victim. You can't then expect us to just accept that a sub-group of biologically male people are harmless, solely because they say they are women, when the statistical evidence matches the evidence of our own instincts in saying that that they are as harmful as any other males, and we have lifelong training in protecting ourselves from harm. It's an irrational and unreasonable expectation. We can't forget what we know, and even if we could, we'd be stupid to.

You may know you pose no risk. A woman who doesn't know you can't possibly know that. I want single sex provision because men commit almost all violent crime. And statistically, transwomen commit crime at male rates. Of course most transwomen are no risk whatsoever. Most males are no risk, either. But they are exponentially more risky as a class, and we safeguard against them accordingly. This isn't about unfounded fear, let alone dislike. I have a son, husband and daughter I happen to like and trust more than anyone, but only one of the three belongs in women's spaces.

Nobody should suffer from abuse and discrimination for being who they feel that they are, and I would always support both Equality Act principles, and in fact would advocate that hate crime should cover all protected groups. I think the inadequacy of medical provision for trans people is an utter disgrace that shames the country. That doesn't change the fact that, like most women, I have an extremely well-evidenced, well-founded wariness of males. Wanting separate spaces is not negatively discriminatory. And I am not interested in how someone identifies when my own bodily autonomy is at issue. I am interested in sex, not gender, because eliminating males from spaces eliminates almost all risk to women. Division by gender identity can't.

I respect that trans people are human beings, simply seeking to live their lives with dignity, like anyone else. But so are women. That's why single sex spaces were created to begin with. To ensure our full participation in the world. And now that right is being removed from us, and you seem quite bemused by our objections.

DeRigueurMortis · 18/02/2020 02:09

Wellbehavedwoman

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏😘😘😘😘