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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

999 replies

RoyalCorgi · 16/02/2020 19:16

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

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13
FactsAreNotMean · 17/02/2020 12:10

The straw man arguments about male teachers/doctors etc are just insulting to everyone. A fully background checked professional, working within a framework with appropriate safeguarding, is in no way comparable to a system which allows all males access to private female spaces.

theflushedzebra · 17/02/2020 12:11

Sorry I don't know why my post went on twice!

Strangerthantruth · 17/02/2020 12:11

Anyway the good thing is there is ZERO possibility of Nandy being in a position to advance her plan to provide victims to rapists.

PreseaCombatir · 17/02/2020 12:12

Why even have laws? I mean, people are going to break them anyway....

EverardDigby · 17/02/2020 12:16

I still don't understand why it was nearly all blokes there, does anyone know what this actually was, the DM says a "campaign rally". Were all the women at home making tea and putting the kids to bed?

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 12:20

2009 successful appeal case which set precedent for possible transfer of male prisoners convicted of violent crime & sexual abuse of women to the female prison estate is important reading.
There is noticeably little discussion/consideration of the impact this decision would have on vulnerable female prisoners.

This statement is striking however:

"Dr Barrett stated in his second report:
"I would say that I suspect that caution will probably lead to her being placed on a segregation unit in the first instance and that in no very great time (perhaps a couple of months) it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world." (continues)

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html&query=(Transgender)+AND+(woman)+AND+(prison)

for context background to this witness:
"The only evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, who has also known the Claimant for many years, explained why living in role in female accommodation was required and added that he did not consider that the Claimant was not an appropriate candidate for surgery"

Winesalot · 17/02/2020 12:20

I would like to know how a transwoman would know which transwomen are predatory/violent against other women or children and who are not.

To deny that they are out there would be dishonest considering the statistics are available. And considering the proportion of transwomen prisoners are in jail currently for sexual assault and violence.

SarahTancredi · 17/02/2020 12:22

The mail article appears to have no comments right now. Comments often run into the hundreds even thousands in many articles. I find it odd that alot if these end up capped at 19 or something stupid. And those will all be along the lines of "madness" or "stop the world I'm.getting off"

There seems to be desperate attempt at "damage control!

Having said that the comments on the times article are reassuring for the most part. I do notice however theres a couple of people "missing" people who said it would never happen and we are scare mongering and being insulting towards other commenters. Seems they have little to say now?

ThinEndoftheWedge · 17/02/2020 12:22

@Winesalot.

This is discussed a lot - If you abuse you are not a real TW. Convenient - but always needs a victim first to enable the distinction.

Victim - who cares?

AlecTrevelyan006 · 17/02/2020 12:26

I sometimes wonder that the likes of Nandy, RLB etc simply hadn't thought out the 'unintended' consequences of TWAW and Self-ID.

I'm sure that when many of the Woketariat first drank the kool aid they believed that TWs were mainly a bunch of sad teenage boys and young men who just wanted to wear pink and play with dolls. It hadn't occurred to them that so many TWs are middle-aged blokes who get a thrill out of imposing their will on women.

Strangerthantruth · 17/02/2020 12:29

It hadn't occurred to them that so many TWs are middle-aged blokes who get a thrill out of imposing their will on women.

This IS exactly what has happened to Nandy, RLB et al.

Winesalot · 17/02/2020 12:29

Yes ThinEndoftheWedge. You are right. I don’t know, I was hoping for some insight apart from looking into someone’s soul.

SonEtLumiere · 17/02/2020 12:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floisme · 17/02/2020 12:37

How long do these hustings go on for? I'd like to see the same question put to Long-Bailey and Starmer. I'd also like see who applauds.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 17/02/2020 12:40

think that crimes that are recorded should be recorded as that person wishes

Do what?

I think If you commit a crime you dont get to name the terms for recording it

littlbrowndog · 17/02/2020 12:41

That is what happens in Scotland

EmpressLangClegInChair · 17/02/2020 12:42

Men are going to murder anyway - Preventing all murder is unworkable so let’s allow it! Let’s not worry about these women and girls.

That's very close to what Ruth Hunt said. Although her version was a casual "Men are always going to rape women." It shows where their priorities are.

I think Stonewall, the Labour party etc would be a lot more use if they pushed for males who identify as trans to be just as valid and respected as any other males. OJ, Harrop et al could start a You Can Pee With Me movement that would work on ensuring everyone felt safe and comfortable in the spaces for their own sex.

(I was sitting behind Layla Moran when she said the souls thing. It was an enormous struggle to stay quiet.)

SarahTancredi · 17/02/2020 12:42

It hadn't occurred to them that so many TWs are middle-aged blokes who get a thrill out of imposing their will on women

I think they had always known. Or they wouldnt be so angry at the people who tell them no. Which makes it worse But they are just selfish their chronic neediness to be liked overrules everything.

What they dont seem to understand is that their new found "friends" wont he anywhere to be seen when they end up in a.situation where the reality of what they are fighting for sets in.

Except by that time they will have blocked or cut contact with most if us. Amd if course it will be our fault not the men who lied to them Hmm

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 12:43

I have my question ready for Lisa if she decides to do a webchat.

FactsAreNotMean · 17/02/2020 12:47

SonEtLumiere is right

For many years women were "nice" and would by and large quitely let the stereotypical TW that so many people imagine we are talking about use women's facilities. That's because:
a) women are conditioned to be nice/kind/non-confrontational and
b) historically the people we were considering as TW were a group of people who evoked sympathy - think Hailey from Coronation Street type

But this quiet acceptance in situations where we didn't feel too frightened wasn't enough. Then the campaigners started up. They started demanding more - quietly being nice about toilets and changing rooms wasn't enough, now we needed to accept TW in refuges, prisons, for our intimate exams. Then we were told it was bigoted to consider how that TW appeared - a man with a full beard and a visible penis was to be accepted in just the same way as we had accepted post-surgical TW who adopted feminine stereotypical appearance.

It is these campaigners who blew a huge hole in the ability of the "quiet" TW to go about their daily life as they preferred. It is them who have caused many women to now take quite a hardline female-spaces-for-females-only stance, because their insistence that we accept all so called TW has in fact created a situation where they are insisting we accept all men. There was effectively an unspoken system of trust, and the TRAs broke it.

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 12:49

This is a good link someone linked on twitter:

insidetime.org/are-they-stupid/

And also these:

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female
Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female
SingingLily · 17/02/2020 12:51

I don't know - but who can explain the type of women who write to lifers and marry them

From my former professional experience, they are invariably needy women with a long history of suffering abuse who find real long term relationships scary (for understandable reasons) but who crave the "respectability" of marriage. Marrying a lifer is safe...as long as there's absolutely no chance of release.

I've locked up both transwomen in male prisons and transmen in women's prisons. Much much more of the former than the latter. However, I never met a transman who busted a gut trying to get a transfer to a male prison. Their need for validation was just not that strong. And they were not stupid.

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 12:52

Paedophile are supreme manipulators. They manipulate everyone in order to get access to children and to get away with it. They may well come across as nice caring men and go to some trouble to present themselves as pillars of the community whilst carry out vile abuse behind the scenes.

This article by Christian Wolmar is an excellent examination of the extent to which predatory males will seek & maintain positions where they can abuse children without challenge. The focus here is of males who held very senior positions in Social Work & worked in children's homes.
It will always be the most vulnerable who will be targetted first by predators.
It also includes a useful record of how PIE (paedophile information exchange) integrated itself into social justice movements of the times & the eventual prosecution of some key members.

'Forgotten Children – the background to the children’s homes scandals'
(extract)
"In the 1970s and 1980s, an epidemic of abuse swept through Britain’s children’s homes. More than 100 care workers have already been convicted; more than 1,000 await trial. But no one has yet explained how such a grotesque scandal could have come about. Christian Wolmar has spent two years trying to do so. Here are some of his conclusions.

The scandal that unfolded in British children’s homes in the 1980s and 1990s is, on the face of it, inexplicable. A modern western nation with a tradition of caring for the weak – the birthplace of the welfare state – houses thousands of children in residential homes where they end up battered and sexually abused.

It is, according to a government minister in the Lords, “the greatest scandal of the 20th century”. Unfortunately, the minister’s view has not found much echo in society at large. The story has been largely ignored by the press. It has, too, been the subject of little academic research, despite the obvious need for a greater understanding. Successive governments have commissioned reports into particular incidents, but most of these have been at a local level. Yet the importance of understanding the wider history of these scandals cannot be overstated, for without such understanding, it is impossible to frame a policy to tackle the problem." (continues)

www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2000/10/forgotten-children-the-background-to-the-childrens-homes-scandals/

Ht Dr Andrew Thorne (Qualified SW and Probation Officer) who has recently been reported to Social Work England by TRAs for discussing Safeguarding risks in trans inclusive/affirmation policies.
twitter.com/athornehere

StealthPolarBear · 17/02/2020 12:53

Any chance of a response to the calm and sensible points put to you Robin?

RoyalCorgi · 17/02/2020 12:53

But you wouldn’t be arguing that we can’t have male doctors, teachers or emergency service workers because a vanishingly tiny proportion of people in those possessions exploit their access to vulnerable individuals?

Vanishingly tiny? When I was at secondary school there were (off the top of my head) four male teachers having affairs with female pupils. Honestly, Robin, if you aren't aware of the scale of sexual abuse in the teaching and medical professions, you're probably in the wrong job.

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