Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

[RoyalCorgi]

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

Is it being suggested that because of the especially challenging issues arising from the need to appropriately house less than 100 trans-identifying prisoners, I and the 12,000 to 20,000 trans women (still only 1 in 3,000 or less) living in and contributing to society should be prevented from using the female lavatories at my place of work or in Sainsbury’s

I think it's actually the other way round. It's escalation. It starts with some males being allowed in female-only spaces like toilets (especially if they have made a bit of an effort to appear female, and perhaps had their penis removed), and it ends with men who have convictions for rape being entitled to enter every female space.

Because as soon as you say that some males can enter some female spaces, you have to draw a line at which males and which spaces. Far better to just say no males in female only spaces.

Paedophile are supreme manipulators. They manipulate everyone in order to get access to children and to get away with it. They may well come across as nice caring men and go to some trouble to present themselves as pillars of the community whilst carry out vile abuse behind the scenes.

Lisa Muggeridge youtube video explains this very well:
'Social work training: Ever present risk of predatory behaviour'

Robin. it is laweyrs such as yourself that have made this entire package of rights for males to be considered female a deal or no deal. Exception without exception. We have rejected your offer.

And your ridiculous analogy is one of a long list of stupid arguments we see endlessly. Argue on the " males are female at all times" proposal merits or don't bother, we are sick to death of the stupid endless pointing at a completely different situation

The way to accommodate conflicting rights is surely third spaces? Do you support that solution Robin and if not, why not?

Acceptance without exception - woops.

a respectable, contributing citizen, the opportunity to go about my day to day business

No one is stopping you going about your daily business. Just putting boundaries on where you can conduct your business, like every other aspect of society that everyone has to abide by. How can we tell the difference between you and Dolatowski? We don’t all have Butler’s soul-gazing superpowers you know.

You may think yourself respectable but you are not respectful.

My daughters do not want to get changed in the presence of a male, regardless of how he identifies and regardless of their “respectability” and there is no way of knowing if they’re the good sort or not based on appearance.

If you were any sort of decent person you would have empathy for this position but it’s all you, you, you.

Oh, and it’s fewer, not less. We want fewer rapes, fewer sexual assaults, and fewer occasions when women and girls are made to feel uncomfortable to validate your place in society.

I would genuinely like the debate on how to accommodate conflicting rights to be conducted to occur but it seems impossible when the majority of the GC movement adopt a position that would deny me, a respectable, contributing citizen, the opportunity to go about my day to day business.

Safeguarding frameworks are based on the responsibilities of the state, organisations & adults to protect children & Vulnerable Adults.

So, Robin, cards on the table time.

Speaking as a barrister, where would you appropriately house less than 100 trans-identifying prisoners?

We have rejected your offer I think I have found my new t-shirt slogan.

It’s in the DM. Sorry for linking to that site but...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8012193/Labour-trans-rights-row-Lisa-Nandy-says-rapists-transition-sent-womens-prisons.html

I would genuinely like the debate on how to accommodate conflicting rights

I'm not sure I believe that. I get the impression you would genuinely like to further the cause of allowing all transwomen free, unfettered access to women's spaces.

Male doctors etc - actually I do argue that women should retain the right to be treated by female nurse/doctor/midwife. But they exist in a safeguarding professional framework. A male teacher shouldn't expect female students to change in front him. Nobody can self ID into these professional roles, so why can male rapists self ID into women's prisons?

I don't see why you think that anybody born male should just gain access to services for those born female, just because they think they should be able to.

I would genuinely like the debate on how to accommodate conflicting rights to be conducted to occur but it seems impossible when the majority of the GC movement adopt a position that would deny me, a respectable, contributing citizen, the opportunity to go about my day to day business.

How does not being allowed to use spaces designed for the opposite sex stop you from going about your day to day business?

Was it not explained to you at any time during your transition that you cannot change sex? If this wasn't properly explained to you, or worse still, they gave you the impression that you could, then you may have a good case for suing the psychiatrists and doctors who treated you.

And yep, that's everyone now talking to Robin, and the dangerous conversation of females about rapists in female prisons and the impact on females has been successfully halted and refocused on to the feelings and needs of males.

Bravo Robin.

Robin, with respect, this isn't about you. This is about the rights of females not to be incarcerated with rapists.

The need to re-establish Safeguarding frameworks to protect girls & women were discussed in some detail on a thread with this poster recently & included highlighting the impact of male prisoners being housed with vulnerable females in women's prisons.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3823299-So-much-confusion-over-transgender-issues

Robin, with respect, this isn't about you. This is about the rights of females not to be incarcerated with rapists.
Hear hear. Robin, please explain how you would deal with this issue.

I would genuinely like the debate on how to accommodate conflicting rights

I'm not sure I believe that. I get the impression you would genuinely like to further the cause of allowing all transwomen free, unfettered access to women's spaces.

Actually I do argue that women should retain the right to be treated by female nurse/doctor/midwife. A male teacher shouldn't expect female students to change in front him. Nobody can self ID into these professional roles, so why can male rapists self ID into women's prisons?

I don't see why you think that anybody born male should just gain access to services for those born female, just because they think they should be able to.

The existence of male rapists who can self identify as women, make Lisa Nandy's position untenable.

Robin
Why not start a new thread with your post and for a start, why don't you propose some alternatives? I would be very interested in seeing what you would propose other than women and girls allowing you to use our single sex spaces.

Surely you can see that with the current 'no debate' manoeuvring, these issues are linked. I think you must acknowledge that with 1500 transgender prisoners (majority male to female) when compared to just double the number of biological female prisoners who are, from statistics, mostly non-violent, would mean significant safeguarding issues.

However, I think this thread is not the place to discuss using your local loos. But it is a place to continue to discuss the prison issue if you would like to.

And yep, that's everyone now talking to Robin, and the dangerous conversation of females about rapists in female prisons and the impact on females has been successfully halted and refocused on to the feelings and needs of males.

Bravo Robin.

This

@RobinMoiraWhite

But if the impractical unworkable extreme is really the collective GC position, then, with respect, it will always fail, it seems to me.

Extreme - single sex spaces for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. Not extreme - decent and appropriate

Unworkable - Fully workable - you chose for it not to be. Not sure why you think adults with male anatomy should have the legal right to see girls like my 14 year old daughter get undressed and for them to be forced to see those males’ adult penises.

Shall we get rid of our murder/burglary laws etc because people (mainly men) will still murder/burgle, and get away with it??!!

The Office for National Statistics has just released data which shows that the number of female homicide victims increased from 220 to 241 in the 12 months to March 2019, an increase of 10%. It’s the second consecutive annual increase, despite the overall number of homicides falling by 5% overall.

Men are going to murder anyway - Preventing all murder is unworkable so let’s allow it! Let’s not worry about these women and girls.

I would genuinely like the debate on how to accommodate conflicting rights to be conducted to occur

But this position is deemed transphobic Robin

Labour Party members who are you voting for?

It seems to me Nandy and Long Bailey aren't an option.

What's Starmer's view on self idea does anyone know?

from the Daily Mail article linked above:

But Ms Nandy, 40, was applauded as she told the audience: 'I believe fundamentally in people's right to self-ID.

'I believe the Gender Recognition Act strikes the wrong balance in relation to that.

'I think that crimes that are recorded should be recorded as that person wishes, having gone through that process, received support and self-identified.

'I think trans women are women, I think trans men are men, so I think they should be accommodated in a prison of their choosing.' (continues)

Female prisoners who identify as transgender cannot be placed in the male prison estate due to the unmanageable risk to them from male prisoners

I wonder if Lisa Nandy MP has reflected on the implications of her assertion yesterday that some male prisoners convicted of rape of children / women or violence against women should be able to choose to be placed in the female prison estate?

I'm not sure I believe that. I get the impression you would genuinely like to further the cause of allowing all transwomen free, unfettered access to women's spaces.

This - access to female spaces. That is exactly what they want dressed up as stunning and brave.

Robin - how can I tell if a male wants open access to female spaces because they are stunning and brave or because they are a pervert knowing that they are unlikely to be questioned because people are worried about being accused of transphobia / hate crimes/incidents etc.

Do stunning and brave individuals enjoy dominating and dictating to women and girls

Do we know how many women are currently in prison with a transwoman?

If we do, do we know how many women are in a prison with a male sex offender or male non-sexual violent offender?

How many women? Right now. Today. As I type. How many women are in this situation? We should know.

I don't care how many male prisoners claim to be transwomen. I care how many women are locked up with criminal males.

Robin
I think that most? women would be happy to discuss third spaces. But this has been repeatedly dismissed. A recent case involved a trans woman who was offered a 3rd 'gender nuetral' space by Centre Parcs but they dismissed it and insisted on their right to enter spaces where women and girls were undressed.
As is repeatedly stated, women and girls are unable to distinguish from the harmless male self identifying as a woman from Katie Dolatowski Karen White or Melissa Addiss. This is not a problem of our making and in the light of the intolerance and bullying aimed at women, now compounded by the Labour Party stating that raising concerns like this is transphobia, women, decent men and parents are now doubling down and saying no.