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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

999 replies

RoyalCorgi · 16/02/2020 19:16

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

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13
NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 09:35

Does anyone have a times share token for the article please?

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 09:36

Sorry, completely missed kitten's post Blush

Tootsweets23 · 17/02/2020 09:42

I keep thinking about the key cutter of Broadmoor hospital. Someone in a position of authority had a set of keys cut for Saville giving him access to vulnerable people.

I see these politicians the same as that key cutter. They know; they know this gives predators access but they just don't care or are will to turn a blind eye and hope they have deniability if it goes pear shaped.

Michelleoftheresistance · 17/02/2020 09:42

Reminiscent of North Korea where people were terrified not to cry enough or look distraught enough at the national funeral, because they knew they were being watched for their reaction and would be punished if it was wrong.

There is no thinking this through or looking ahead. If every self ID'd TW in the prison system goes into the women's estate there are several obvious things that a child could forecast.

The rate of identification among male prisoners will explode. This will be for many reasons. Talk to prison staff, they'll give you a list off the top of their heads, and it'll include 'sheer boredom', particularly from serious crime prisoners with years ahead of them, wanting any kind of control or change in the monotony. Not to mention that sex offenders like controlling women, it's a hobby of theirs, with very little scope to enjoy it in the male estate. The huge numbers of male born, biologically male prisoners needs to be considered for several reasons. The high proportion of the self identification in prison coming from the sex offenders list is also relevant. Bearing in mind that less than 2% of rapes end in a conviction, someone doing a sentence of several years for serious sexual offending has had to do something extreme and probably repeatedly.

With the numbers involved, the fact that women make up only 5% of the prison population, and that there are 8 dedicated category A male prisons but only 2 female prisons that take category A female prisoners as well as other categories, the tipping point is quickly going to come where the higher security women's prisons become either equally mixed sex or actually male dominated. It may be manageable to have one single higher category male prisoner managed in a lower category, lower security female estate: when it's approaching equally mixed sex with half higher security than the other half, there are going to be fundamental practical issues on how this is managed.

If additional women category A provision has to be created, it will be almost entirely male prisoners. The prison service (currently) won't put a TM in a male prison, because even they baulk at the risk. By how many do women have to be outnumbered by TW before that risk becomes much the same?

And how many women harassed, intimidated, assaulted, raped or worse is 'acceptable collateral damage'? Give us a number, Nandy. How many vulnerable women are you willing to feed to your political ideals?

Floisme · 17/02/2020 09:44

I've only skimmed a lot of the thread so I may be repeating other posters. I think it's important that all the heat isn't directed at Nandy (although slow wittedness is not a quality I look for in a leader). What Nandy said is the logical conclusion of saying 'TWAW' and all she has done is expose the terrifying non-sense at the heart of it. If you believe in self ID then this is what you support. It's what Long Bailey supports, what Starmer supports, what the Labour party supports.

And thank you Julia Long - great work.

IfNot · 17/02/2020 09:49

Supporters claim that the rules on legally switching gender can be bureaucratic and upsetting.
FFS. Applying for universal credit can be beauracratic and upsetting. Going to family court definitely is. Doing your taxes. Appealing a school decision. Getting made redundant. Complaining about dangerous and negligent maternity care. The list of beauracratic and upsetting things adults sometimes have to do is endless. Legally changing your sex shouldn't be as easy as voting on Strictly! A man legally being treated as a woman is a massive deal. I don't personally even believe it should ever happen but if it has to be allowed there damn well ought to be some hoops to jump through.
I'm astonished at Lisa Nandy totally failing to consider the women trapped in prison with men and how that could affect them!
She CAN'T be that stupid, surely? And she wants to leave the child in her constituency out if it. You can't use a child as emotional blackmail, it's sick.

Danglingmod · 17/02/2020 09:49

Yes, Brava Julia Long and all the other brave feminists whilst all some of the rest of us dare do is hold the occasional whispered conversation.

Also so grateful to The Times for shining light on this. Was thinking of cancelling my sub (purely for financial reasons) but I shan't be doing now.

Awning10 · 17/02/2020 09:50

There's a share token to the Times article on Page 9 of this thread. The comments are worth reading.

TorkTorkBam · 17/02/2020 09:51

michelle good points. Remember prison staff too. A male prisoner who wants a laugh or to get some kicks can say he's a woman and insist on all searches, supervision when naked etc are done by a female prison officer. What about them? Do they have to comply?

ExhaustedGrinch · 17/02/2020 09:51

Flowers for you too @EverardDigby and Flowers for every single woman and man who is fighting against this kind of nonsense.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 09:52

What Nandy said is the logical conclusion of saying 'TWAW' and all she has done is expose the terrifying non-sense at the heart of it. If you believe in self ID then this is what you support. It's what Long Bailey supports, what Starmer supports, what the Labour party supports.

Yes, and each and every person who's supported self ID on here too. This is the inevitable end result of your stupid, unethical, misogynistic policies. Why wouldn't a convicted rapist try to get access to a women's prison, if there's any way they possibly could? If you didn't see this coming it's because you chose not to or because you just don't give a shit how many women are harmed in pursuit of your twisted idea of "fairness".

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 09:57

I witnessed similar in the council chamber in Liverpool, when one of the Liverpool Resisters was invited to speak to the chamber ( in the fall-out of 'sticker gate')...not only did one female councillor make a big show of flouncing out - signalling she was not prepared to listen to 'bigotry' - but the whole chamber got to its feet to loudly clap - after bully boy Mayor Joe Anderson - had spent five minutes shouting at the invited speaker in a shocking way.

It was something to witness. That even those who clearly felt uncomfortable at what they had witnessed - rose to their feet too - to join in.

It really was (& is). Its an effective thing to show people if they're not aware of what's going on. Without much background I play the excellent speech by one of the women from Liverpool Resisters. Then I press pause, everyone so far has commented that they agree with her the importance of Safeguarding & that this is all very reasonable. Then play the mayor's angry response & the council's applause.
It is shocking & people see the power/abuse of power dynamics.

(the stickers which Mayor Anderson describes as offensive & hateful said "women don't have penises")

from 16:00

relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410483-Thread-on-the-recent-misogyny-of-Liverpool-City-Council-re-comments-by-Labour-Cllr-Paul-Kenyon-Mayor-Joe-Anderson

rogdmum · 17/02/2020 09:59

Can I make a plea here for everyone reading this thread with horror/upset/disbelief etc, to please please please comment on the Scottish Govt’s proposal to introduce self ID in Scotland (from the age of 16!)? The consultation is open to anyone, worldwide.

Forwomen.scot have provided guidance here: forwomen.scot/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Bin-the-Bill-Guidance-A4.pdf

Mockersisrightasusual · 17/02/2020 09:59

Someone in a position of authority had a set of keys cut for Saville giving him access to vulnerable people.

That would be Edwina Currie, who put JS in charge of Broadmoor.

{Theresa May ON}

I am NOT making this up!

{Theresa May OFF}

NeurotrashWarrior · 17/02/2020 10:00

Fuck. Seriously?!

Mockersisrightasusual · 17/02/2020 10:03

Seriously Fuck:

www.channel4.com/news/broadmoor-savile-was-a-lunatic-in-charge-of-the-asylum

Mockersisrightasusual · 17/02/2020 10:05

Thatcher was repeatedly warned about Saville but chose to ignore it all. She also had Peter Morrison as her PPS and knew him to be an abuser of young boys. He ran her distasterous leadership campaign in 1990.

Some would call that karma.

Lamahaha · 17/02/2020 10:07

The comments on the Times article are, as usually, gold; but I notice that more and more men are chilling in to argue and are slowly "getting" it. I'm convinced that many of the commenters are Mumsnetters. I know I am one of them!

Awning10 · 17/02/2020 10:08

Sky News talk about it:

twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1229338990282670080

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 10:09

Politicians can overlook pretty much anything if they think it might further their careers.

Lamahaha · 17/02/2020 10:10

Politicians outing themselves in such a ludicrous way is a good thing. People who are inclined to be nice and kind don't have much or any sympathy for child rapists, and ordinary people will be horrified by this suggestion. It's sunlight.

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 10:14

What Nandy said is the logical conclusion of saying 'TWAW' and all she has done is expose the terrifying non-sense at the heart of it. If you believe in self ID then this is what you support. It's what Long Bailey supports, what Starmer supports, what the Labour party supports.

David Davies (Conservative) MP asked questions of the Ministry of Justice policy & impact on vulnerable female prisoners which places males in women's prisons.
Davies also hosted meetings for women asking questions of the proposed GRA.

October 2018 He described being threatened with police action for doing so by a cabinet colleague as well as being investigated by the Standards Committee following reports.

twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1052203110335217664

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/02/2020 10:15

How did we end up in a position where Brendan O'Neill, who's not exactly what you'd call a feminist, cares more about potential harm to female prisoners than every single woman in a position of power within the Labour Party?

I'm pretty much at the "shut the whole party down and start over again from scratch" point. They're not just useless, they're actively harmful.

bellinisurge · 17/02/2020 10:17

She said "she reserves the right to change her mind". Let's see how that works out for you.

Lordfrontpaw · 17/02/2020 10:18

No ‘taking it back’ is not an option. Spineless.