So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

Haven’t read the whole thread but wanted to say welcome - you are where I was in the spring of 2018 (some wise women figured all this out as far back as the 70s but I wasn’t paying attention).

I had no problem with TWAW because I didn’t think they meant literally - I thought they meant ‘some men have gender dysphoria and transition is hard so including them with the adult human females is the decent thing to do’.

It was only when I realised that the gender dysphoria stuff had been thrown out the window and ‘woman’ had been entirely redefined to mean ‘people with a feminine gender identity’ and that TWAW meant ‘exactly the same for all purposes, legally, socially, politically, medically and competitively’ that I thought...

‘Hold on a minute... but I don’t even have a gender identity’ and then Munroe Bergdorf said we shouldn’t talk about female biology because it excludes trans women and I found out I had been renamed as a ‘cervix havre’ by Cancer Research UK.

And then I thought...

‘No’

And now I’m up to ‘No’ and ‘You can all fuck right off with that menstruators nonsense’.

I still have sympathy for people with gender dysphoria, but I’ve birthed out two kids and watched my mum die of ovarian cancer. So I won’t stop talking about the unique experiences, good and bad, of those with female bodies, in order to make people with male bodies happier.

This explains why the rebrand from transsexual or gender dysphoria to ‘Gender Identity’ is a problem for women and girls:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPVNxYkawao&time_continue=1&feature=emb_title

Of course we need to be alarmed OP. Our rights are being eroded and we are not being threatened for defending our rights to safe spaces.

However, missing the point entirely, can I just ask what makes it so hard for you to imagine yourself being described as a feminist? I'm curious. why would your college friends be surprised? Didn't you ever think women were equal to men? Isn't that all being a feminist is? And dont our hard won rights need to be protected?

Dysphoria isn't the 'true woman' card some people seem to think it is.
It's been described to me, by a fairly trans-sympathetic psychiatrist, as a 'low-hanging fruit' ie easy to get.

It's not some signifier for 'harmless male who needs female care and protection at all times' ffs, let alone 'male who really is female'.

'Gender reassignment'' is one category of the nine protected characteristics in the Equality Act.

These are: age; disability; gender reassignment; marriage and civil partnership; pregnancy and maternity; race, religion or belief; sex; sexual orientation.

A man with the protected characteristic of age; disability; marriage and civil partnership; race, religion or belief; sexual orientation - is still a man; and he does not get a free pass into women's spaces, just because he is a man with one of the protected characteristics.

A man with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is no different - he has everyone else's rights not to be discriminated against because of his protected characteristic.

But he does not have the right to bulldoze women's rights and girls' rights in order to serve his own demands. Disabled men don't insist on inclusion in female facilities. Elderly men don't do this. Etc, etc.

I have to confess I’m new to this conversation and mumsnet has really opened my eyes.

I don’t wish trans women abuse, discrimination or any harm at all. I do want female space to remain safe and I think it needs to be acknowledged there is a clash at the moment.

What terrifies me more is the removal of women’s voices. All women lists could now be filled by all trans women. TW have their own very valid representations and concerns but they can not speak for women. Representation matters. Women have to contend with high risk of sexual assault, objectification, glass ceilings, maternity discrimination, pay discrimination, period poverty, a highproportion of domestic abuse and financial abuse, childbirth injuries and so much more. We need representation and I feel like our representation is being diluted.

I have NO issue with also including a transgender list. Fair enough Tw will have experiences I can not hope to understand but we need biological female representation and this doesn’t seem to be being acknowledged.

TW are TW we have separate experiences and to deny this is oppression of women.

I just don't care what the reason is. The answer is no. Your reason may be creepy or nefarious, or you may sincerely feel that you are a woman inside, despite the unchangeable reality of your body.

Going back to what FloralBunting said a couple of pages ago. I agree.

I think it can be very challenging for women to say a clear no with no "but what can I do to make it up to you?" tacked onto the end. If something is bad for women and they say no to it, no obligation is conferred to find an alternative. It's up to the group who are told no to come up with their own alternative that does not impact on women.

It is not wrong to say no with a simple full stop at the end. Every other group does it. Only women feel they should not do it.

What terrifies me more is the removal of women’s voices. All women lists could now be filled by all trans women. TW have their own very valid representations and concerns but they can not speak for women. Representation matters. Women have to contend with high risk of sexual assault, objectification, glass ceilings, maternity discrimination, pay discrimination, period poverty, a highproportion of domestic abuse and financial abuse, childbirth injuries and so much more. We need representation and I feel like our representation is being diluted.

Absolutely this.

Men are socialised to put themselves first and women are socialised to enable them, and we are all socialised to accept it. Transwomen with male socialisation will dominate women with female socialisation and won't even realise they are doing it.

Is there a manifesto for women thats sets out the principles we are standing for? For instance (and not drafting):

• women's safe spaces and special protection for women in prisons, refuges, public toilets and changing rooms
• no gender re-assignment treatment before 21 (or after puberty and growth is completed), with longer timeframes for counselling and living as the opposite gender before any hormonal or medical treatment

Thats sort of thing?
Like 5 points or principles that we can ask politicians to sign up to in opposition to Labour trans commitment. Does it already exist?

Labour Women's Declaration:

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/labour-activists-launch-declaration-women%E2%80%99s-sex-based-rights

There are similar declarations by women from the other parties.

Conservative Women's Pledge:
www.womensgrid.org.uk/?p=10880

Lib Dems:
www.womensgrid.org.uk/?p=10747

Green Party:
www.womensgrid.org.uk/?p=10882

SNP:
www.womensgrid.org.uk/?p=10743

Just quoted from a labour leader candidate on TV on another thread:

"Of course TW are women and we don't want to separate women from other women"

Yeah no one asked women about this, and yes, in some situations, many female people need spaces where they can separate from TW. It isn't reasonable to deny this to females on the grounds that it upsets males and messes with their chosen sense of self.

How TW feel about this really isn't in the equation, it is not all about them and only about them. Unless you believe that rights are something female people can have from the bits left over once male people have taken everything they wanted.

We would not have reached this point of women becoming this angry and having to draw boundaries this strongly if TW had shown the faintest care, compassion or even basic interest in female people, their voices, their needs, instead of totally dismissing that females have any kind of autonomy or personal reality and getting angry women even dared politely ask to be allowed to point out the issues.

Women’s Place UK has 5 demands:
womansplaceuk.org/our-5-demands/:

What terrifies me more is the removal of women’s voices. All women lists could now be filled by all trans women.

18th July 2018 Fawcett Society event 'Courage Calls Tell Her To Stand'

During Q&A the panel of cross party politicains were asked if they saw any issues should the intended 50/50 male-female representation be half men & half trans women (eg 100% male).
Noone raised concerns & one panel member Sal Brinton (Lib Dem chair) said in fact she would be delighted.

Anlaf wrote:

"Sal Brinton to be precise.
And Maria Miller of Conservatives, Amelia Womack of the Greens, Dawn Butler of Labour, Alison Thewliss of SNP, Frances Scott of 50/50 parliament (the irony) - all in nodding agreement that this was fine

Sophie Walker (WEP) and Sam Smethers (chair of Fawcett) were grim faced throughout.

This was the question they were asked:
Most of the all women shortlists are open to anyone who identifies as a woman. So in theory, taking this to this ultimate theorisable end, all women shortlists could be composed of all transwomen, which means parliament could see 50% male representatives, MPs and 50% transwomen MPs. Would everyone be happy with that as fair representation?

This was Sal Brinton's response:
On the issue about would I be happy with 50% transwomen. Absolutely. A transwoman is a woman. And in my party [lib dems] the issue about identification has been self-identification, it is not as has been whispered by some, something you can change your mind and do ten minutes beforehand [much nodding from Alison Thewliss of SNP] we all know who our transwomen are and we support them"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3310443-Fawcett-Society-Live-stream-from-5-30pm-Courage-Calls-Ask-her-to-stand

Sal Brinton was pictured with Zoe O'Connell at the event. Both O'Connell & Sarah Brown (1 of O'Connell's partners) have since left the LibDems.
There are a number of influential transactivists still remaining in LibDems including Helen Belcher (TransMedia Watch & Stonewall) who featured on many of the BBC reports following FairCop Judicial Review findings on Friday.

we all know who our transwomen are and we support them
So they are special women and we are just ordinary women

Once you've made the mistake of deciding males are another kind of female and this is a good thing, then it looks like positive discrimination.

Deluded idiots. It isn't equality, its hurling female people back into the dark ages to please males. It's misogyny on crack.

So they are special women and we are just ordinary women

Ordinary women concerned for Safeguarding & Women's (sex-based) Rights have been told explicitly & implicitly they are not welcome to express their views within the liberal democrats (sic).

21 June 2018 Sal Brinton 'Lib Dems are very clear about the rights of transgender people'
(extract)
Much of the vicious tone and nature of allegations from these people is reminiscent of the homophobia that was commonplace forty years ago – assuming all gay men were paedophiles, or that they could be “cured” by therapy or were just a malevolent curse on society. We would not tolerate that sort of debate today. Indeed, there is now a law against such homophobic hate crime, and the same law applies for transphobic hate crimes.

We had no opposition to our policy when it was debated in 2015, either inside or outside the party. Over the last year these transphobic views have caused internal arguments in the Labour party, and more recently targeting the Lib Dem LGBT community.

As a liberal and as a Liberal Democrat, I believe that people are entitled to their views. If we want to live our values, “champion the freedom, dignity and well-being of individuals, and acknowledge and respect their right to freedom of conscience“ as set out above, we must ensure that one of the most vulnerable groups in our society are able to live as they are entitled to under our law. And most feminists I know, including myself, support trans women, affirming that they too are women with us. But I am concerned that the culture of fear and misrepresentation, made by a handful of radical feminists, is unedifying and contrary to our values. I do not want our trans members to feel excluded or under pressure." (continues)
www.libdemvoice.org/liberal-democrats-are-very-clear-about-the-rights-of-transgender-people-57853.html

1st February 2019 Lynne Featherstone:
"Our members make our policies, and incredible LGBT activists and allies have written comprehensive policies that will make our society a kinder and more equal place than it is today.

Our MPs, Peers and members are fighting for these rights every day:

Trans people being able to change their legal gender and streamlining the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier.
Businesses with more than 250+ employees to monitor and publish data on BAME and LGBT employees, not just gender.
A standard curriculum addition for Sex and Relationship Education (SRE), which will include in SRE teaching about sexual consent, LGBT+ relationships, and issues surrounding explicit images and content.
Gender neutral bathrooms, gender-neutral school uniforms, and ‘X’ option on passports, official documents and forms for those who do not wish to identify as male or female.

I also have a message to those people who believe they can restrict trans women’s rights, deny their human rights, or exclude them from women-only spaces in the name of feminism: You are not feminists. Your views are not welcome in the Liberal Democrats." (continues)
www.libdems.org.uk/lgbt-history-month-19

Cf Behaviour towards women by some Lib Dem trans rights activist members:
Times article by Lucy Bannerman
(extract)
"A victim of domestic abuse was removed as a judge of a radical thinking prize and “hounded” out of her role within the Liberal Democrats for saying that she did not believe that men who identified as women should have access to women’s refuges.

Natalie Bird, 38, a mother of two who fled an abusive former partner, was accused of “dangerous transphobia” by transgender activists in the party. She had said that opening up safe spaces without proper safeguards to anyone who said that they were female could put women at risk.

She opposed segregating women’s refuges by chosen gender instead of biological sex, and said that it was not fair to make female victims of domestic violence, abuse and rape share services with people with “functioning” male anatomy.

After being allegedly bullied on social media by party activists, Ms Bird was brought before a disciplinary hearing to face a complaint in the name of Zoe O’Connell, on behalf of the LGBT+ Liberal Democrats. The correspondence says that Ms Bird had “expressed troublesome views”.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3207415-Just-when-you-thought-the-LibDems-couldnt-out-crazy-Labour

Someone asked again why I haven’t historically described myself as a feminist. I have campaigned and lobbied for women’s rights including reproductive and employment rights. It’s certainly not that I don’t think women are equal.

A long time ago when I was at uni, I didn’t feel militant enough or that I was doing enough to wear the badge compared to some amazing, strong women who were doing so much more.)

In the past couple of decades I have gone the other way. I hear politicians, journalists, celebrities saying ‘I am a feminist’ when there words and actions contradict the declaration and they objectify, joke about and generally show themselves to be part of the patriarchy. Hasn’t even bloody Piers Morgan declared himself a feminist?

I think this is the point and I’m not sure it isn’t what the TRAs want and intend; by shutting down opinions, refusal to debate and branding the opposition as transphobic and TERFs they polarise people. At first glance people think oh it’s just militant man-hating wimmin and lesbians who are against this.

By putting myself on the questioning side I have to accept I am on the side of people who are allegedly ‘exclusionary’ and ‘radical’. It’s emotive language and actually feels like a clever tactic!

Apologies my posts are not as erudite or articulate as others.

Shockedandbefuddled
No need for apologies for your voice here.
Many of us have been through the same or similar realisations. [cuppa]

!

By putting myself on the questioning side I have to accept I am on the side of people who are allegedly ‘exclusionary’ and ‘radical’.

It's a deliberate tactic shocked. Once you realise you're being played, the determination sets in. Take wine. You'll need it.

Datun - exactly. I do believe it is a deliberate tactic and my desire to be liberal and inclusive has been hijacked.

Lightbulb moment!

At first glance people think oh it’s just militant man-hating wimmin and lesbians who are against this.

This is very much pushed as it is very convenient to paint us all as anti-trans - but this is far from the truth. As I said before, I don't know anyone who is anti-trans, whatever that is supposed to mean, but as soon as you question any of it, you are called a bigot.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/judge-criticises-hospital-after-girl-sexually-assaulted-by-man-63-on-ward-1.4170837?mode=amp

When you are faced with people who want to remove the right to single sex spaces, keep this young woman in mind.

It will strengthen your resolve.

Maybe I’m getting too overly-invested in this but also feel it’s been clever how latching on to LTBG is interesting.