My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

The internet is littered with men discussing violence against women.

Is it really? IME it's mainly discussed in feminist spaces and to a lesser degree in support groups etc.

Whataboutery and comparisons to violence by BAME people doesn't add anything it just comes across as a gotcha.

But if you dismiss it as such then it won't seem to hold value to you. But I'm yet to see a valid reasoning of why it's not relevant. IMO male violence needs to be looked at from a broad perspective, but any attempt to do that seems to get shut down pretty fast in an almost #nodebate fashion.

Yet somehow it's always groups and forums where women gather to discuss their experiences and share their frustrations, worries and disappointments that get told how mean and silly we are and that we are the ones at fault for not having the right ideas about men.

Well, it's only natural that people who disagree will lay their disagreement at the foot of the source, which is usually feminist boards. It makes more sense the complaining on a football forum.

Stop being a dick, jargoyle. Men going onto feminist forums and picking a row with the locals is not a good look, and is exactly the sort of behaviour that many posters on here are railing against.

I don't know if he'll take any more notice of me because I'm male. I suspect not, but it'll be interesting to see.

thedancingbear I personally prefer discussion (reading as much as participating) involving differing opinions rather than one about how much everyone agrees with each other.

If I met a man on the street today and he decided to batter me its because either he's a) a total nut job who wanted to just batter someone and I was the unfortunate bugger that got in his way. Or most likely b) he recognised due to biological knowledge that he's stronger than I am and can probably floor me with one punch. This man for whatever reason probably hates women and that drives him. He certainly didn't thump me to stop me thumping him.

There isn't a comparison to state that says black peoples are responsible for knife crime. I don't believe you saying that has made me feel uncomfortable, that would happen if I felt there was some unwelcome truth in the statement. There are a shitload of societal reasons behind the rise in knife crime which aren't the same as those driving the fact that some men have been raping and killing women every day since the dawn of time. The men who do it mainly do so coz they can.

Nonny, my point about a lack of response wasn't aimed at you specifically. I'm in a different time zone to the UK, so people aren't always around when I post. It was a general observation. It didn't take long for someone to twist my meaning though. Another chance to snipe rather than engage.

I've lurked on FWR for many years and rarely post. I've learned a great deal. If an OP requests women only participation, I respect that. I didn't see it here. Some subjects are more relevant to male posters and this seemed like one - male toxicity. But if people don't want male input, just say so at the top of the thread and I'll keep out.

I don't know if he'll take any more notice of me because I'm male. I suspect not, but it'll be interesting to see.^

Lol, the good old suggestion that I'm a man because I don't agree with the FWR 'viewpoint'. If you read my posting history you'll see that I'm in fact female.

Maybe you should consider your own actions, coming onto a feminist forum and acting aggressively towards women who don't agree with you!

This is a dedicated forum and the users anticipate a general consensus on basic definitions.

These threads typically start off with the OP asking for support and then get sidetracked with demands that we explain basic concepts. Imo its unfair on OP and other forum users.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Thank you for actually engaging with my question.

I agree that there are likely societal reason behind black violence. However, there often seems to me to be an argument that men are collectively responsible for male violence just for being part of that class.

So, if we are going to accept societal factors as being a mitigating factor for some classes, would we also consider biological reasons to be mitigating in others - i.e. biological reasons why men might be more violent than women?

Although, really my view is that individual responsibility trumps collective responsibility as I find it hard to hold my partner responsible for the actions of a violent man who might live two streets down from us. I'd expect him not to actively engage in, for example, misogynistic jokes but in terms of preventing male violence all he can really do is ensure he doesn't commit it himself.

I personally prefer discussion (reading as much as participating) involving differing opinions rather than one about how much everyone agrees with each other.

My feelings exactly.

I have a comment if it helps?
I only clicked the first link and 'Safe Austin' appears to be run by women.

Groggylegs, that is that last link not the first. Did you go through them all to find one that had women involved just to pick holes?

Acalltomen was founded by men. Whiteribbon, founded by men, run by men, engaging with men around the world to fix this awful problem. And you hone in on one that is run by women? Safeaustin might not be the same as the others because it helps victims of both male and female violence, but it came from a quick google search. Do you have a problem with the other sources, whatever jumbled up order they appear on your browser?

'Black violence' it's not black women committing this violence is it?

Again, it is an issue with men. Men in this case who happen to be black.

Whatever sub-class or category you use, the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of violence or oppression are men.

Jurgen, you're rude.

'Safe Austin' is the FIRST LINK on your post from 20:56

I literally clicked it, went to 'about' and lo, it's run by women.
I then thought 'well that's a shit example to demonstrate men's involvement then' posted my comment and went to work.

'Trawling your list' indeed.
Oh to have the time.

Is it really? IME it's mainly discussed in feminist spaces and to a lesser degree in support groups etc.

Yes, in my view it is. There are a lot of online spaces dominated by men. Some are overtly violent and pornographic. And very easily accessible by those under 18. Others less so, but there is a lot of aggressive and demeaning language used especially in reference to women. Some women prefer to use neutral or masculine sounding usernames when posting around to avoid being harassed by men and having their views taken seriously.
If it's obvious you are female and have strong opinions online, you become quite a target during any discussions and can receive private messages that are aggressive and sexual with the intention to intimidate and upset.

These men are not criminals or offenders. They are fairly average blokes, many with partners and families, who think the anonymity of the internet gives them a free pass to express what they really think and feel about women.

I'm in a Facebook group that is mostly used by young women. I tend to not post much, but I do read their conversations and how they are harassed and targeted by men on their social media like Instagram etc. Usually the men send a 'nice' message then flip to aggressive and threatening when ignored or turned down.

It's young women and teenage girls that are targeted the most.

I do think that men do have more of a responsibility if not for the crap behaviour which has happened but maybe to prevent it in future. For example: a schoolgirl in uniform walks past a group of men. One or two shout obscenities at her. Instead of laughing along one or two could tell them to stop being a dick. Maybe apologise to the poor kid. Something really small but if it happened more often than not it shames the perpetrators into thinking about their actions and shows that young girl that for every idiot that does that there's another man that will actively call it out. Because for me that's really important - I clearly KNOW that NAMALT as I've an amazing DH that gets it and male friends who are awesome. I just rarely see in real life many men pushing back against crap behaviour and calling other men out on it.

As fa as biological reasons ... I think I said that in my last post, that the biology differences between make and female make violence often easier if the offender is inclined.

Agree with both of the above posts.

Online dating is a very good example, with unsolicited dick pics being so common that many users even mention in their bio that such men will immediately be blocked.

Men should defo call out the behaviour you mention above when witnessing it from their mates etc. Where I start to struggle however is when we get to the spousal murder debate and more serious incidents of violence. These areas are very hard IMO for the average man to police/make a difference to. When I look around my workplace I see a variety of men, some arseholes, some really good guys, but I don't know what the majority of them can do to stop a random guy murdering his partner. Most are unlikely to even know such a person given the 'two a week' out of several million men.

I personally prefer discussion (reading as much as participating) involving differing opinions rather than one about how much everyone agrees with each other.

So women all think alike? I can tell you haven't been around feminist discussion much.

My lovely dad would always stand up bless him. Some horrible drunk men were shouting abuse on a coach once when we were on holiday the 3 of us were young teens. Dad politely asked them to stop as his daughters were there. They all turned on him. He ended up having a fight in the aisle (he is middle class professional) ended only by my 13 year old sister joining in so the horrible men backed off. Never been more mortified or more proud!

T Swift

Your dad sounds like a very brave and decent individual, but this also shoes the risks of the average man challenging others. Had it not been in an aisle he would've likely been surrounded and beaten to the ground. Imagine if he'd been stabbed in front of you and your sister.

I don't blame many men for turning the other way, even though it's easy to say they shouldn't.

So women all think alike?

That question is automatically paradoxical.

I think it depends. I think if you are stronger you face somewhat of a duty to protect those weaker than you. I had to intervene and get this man off a woman after hearing a scream coming from outside. Nothing wrong making a risk assessment though in my case it was a lone attacker rather than a group.

Unfortunately we are a violent species and the use of force underpins the hierarchies we create. I think we need to face that fact face the shadow (in the psychological sense) and integrate it into a socially functional psyche.

Whilst we may have violence as part of our nature but we can enforce societal rules that make any initiation of the use of force taboo and perhaps most importantly cultivate higher levels of empathy in men as I believe that is the key to solving violence against women.

Gronky, that is how is appears in my app. Apologies if yours is different. Your browser view is not how I posted it originally.

I would urge caution when it comes to direct confrontation in certain situations as well.
There's a difference between telling off friends and family for stupid / unacceptable behaviour versus confronting a stranger or group of strangers. Aggression and violence can escalate quickly and a man can find himself in a dangerous situation with no one else to back him up.
Men have to individually make their own risk assessments in such situations, but it certainly helps when creeps and arseholes know there are other men who might intervene or call them out on their behaviour.

JurgenKloppsCat Is that in reference to the idea of men needing to take collective responsibility? I'm inclined to agree that it's unfair to demand action or acceptance of collective responsibility from all individuals with common traits of transgressors but, at the same time, if there is a culture which encourages transgressions, it's fair to demand responsibility from those who contribute to that culture, generally removed from their intentions (I think it's too far to entirely dismiss intentions).