My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

From the OP;

*how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.
*
So, is this true? Is having a group that contains the majority of violent humans the same as the group being 'basically toxic'?

I think if most of a persons experiences have been negative then I'd understand them having that view.

From the OPs op I'd read it that way.

JurgenKloppsCat you missed out the bit at the end.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

Sounds to me like a woman who has had some very unpleasant and discouraging experiences with men over the course of her life and is venting and expressing her frustration and trying to work through her difficult feelings.

Sometimes when I've read about horrible things happening to women around the world, I despair and feel the same. How nothing has improved and it can feel like things are going backwards. Luckily, I have a lovely partner and my faith in men restores fairly quickly.

@Flower8919 ok try this thought and see if it has any traction? Instead of policing women’s rational responses to trauma and risk assessments in response to such why not hold the men who rape responsible?

I promise you women would rather not go about their lives on high alert at all times it must be pretty exhausting and I think even a cursory acknowledgement of that fact would go a long way.

Expecting a degree of emotional labour from women to be ‘nice’ to men when discussing the topic is a little farcical not to mention tone deaf. I’d be pretty pissed off in their shoes.

^Can we get some perspective on this? I’m a man and I don’t walk the Earth with feminists pointing fingers at me saying I might be a potential rapist 24/7, the measures women take to keep themselves safe are usually much subtler. It’s only really in the online sphere this sort of topic comes up, and honestly have at it. I get what’s at stake.

I’m also not one of these mythical “good men” either. I’m a mess half the time I’m sure I have as many wrong ideas rolling around my head as right ones. Not entirely sure how to sort which is which on some days. However for what it’s worth I’m not offended by any of this class analysis it seems pretty obvious most perpetrators of rape/sexual assault are men, I’m not sure what is to be gained to obfuscate/ dance around that fact.

Call a spade a spade, some men are dangerous, there is no realistic way to sort which is which, the rational response is for women to be cautious. How is that remotely contentious?^

I'm a feller and this makes a lot of sense to me. I do my best not to be a dick, and most of the time I hope I succeed. I do tend to think this is the main thing most of us should strive to do.

FWIW, I'm watchful around a lot of men too. I recognise that the nature of the risk is different - and I don't want a bunfight about whether getting nutted or beaten up or sexually assaulted is worse.

It's a minor gripe I do bristle slightly at the suggestion that I bear some elevated responsibility for the behaviour of these fuckers based on a shared chromosomal persuasion (and you can usually tell who they are from a mile off though of course there's no litmus test). I see myself as having nothing in common with them and feel no kinship with them. And my world certainly isn't better for their existence - I see them as a threat to me, and I don't see what advantage I glean from some women being wary/frightened of my because of my sex.

'It's a minor gripe I do bristle slightly at the suggestion that I bear some elevated responsibility for the behaviour of these fuckers based on a shared chromosomal persuasion (and you can usually tell who they are from a mile off though of course there's no litmus test). I see myself as having nothing in common with them and feel no kinship with them.'

It's a similar issue to Muslims and terrorism. There's no denying that a certain subset are dangerous. But any right minded person knows that you cannot blame the actions of a section of that group on the whole Muslim population. There are those that do, of course, but we know what type of people they are. It's also true that we as a society don't get rid of these dangerous individuals by saying 'you lot sort it out, we want nothing to do with you'. You can on an individual level, but that gets nothing fixed.

I think this is a dangerous comparison. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, far, far fewer people have been killed and injured by muslim terrorists in the UK in (say) the last decade, than have been the victims of male violence.

You're not far from directly comparing women/people who are wary of men with racists and islamophobes. That's not your intention is it?

You've also missed my point, I think. I've no jurisdiction, control, relationship, kinship - anything - with these fucking arseholes. I see them as toxic other (and this may be mutual). There's an open question as to whose 'responsibility' it is to sort them out; I don't necessarily feel it's mine more than anyone else based purely on shared hormones or genitals. And I really don't recognise the scenario where 'calling them out' is going to get them to moderate their behaviour: neither of us will see the other as their peer.

It's a tricky one, I'll grant you.

It's a similar issue to Muslims and terrorism. There's no denying that a certain subset are dangerous. But any right minded person knows that you cannot blame the actions of a section of that group on the whole Muslim population.

True, but there are growing numbers of Ex-muslims and secular Muslims who are openly challenging and criticising Islam and Islamist ideology and highlighting the beliefs and attitudes that can enable extremism within Muslim communities. They get a lot of flak and ostracism from fellow Muslims because just like any ideology, dissent from within the ranks 'gives us a bad name'. You can't tackle religious extremism if you can't openly talk about what might be problematic about the religious beliefs themselves. Ex-muslims speak out in spite of the personal costs and accusations of Islamophobia.

Is there something similar amongst men?

Nonny, these are the first ones I found;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MenAgainsttViolenceanddAbuse

https://www.whiteribbon.ca

https://www.menstoppingviolence.org

https://www.ourwatch.org.au/Preventing-Violence/Men

https://www.communitysafety.utoronto.ca/reporting-a-crime/men-against-violence/

https://www.acalltomen.org

https://www.moosehidecampaign.ca

https://maltacvs.org/voluntary/men-against-violence/

https://www.ted.com/talks/jacksonkatzzviolenceagainsttwomenittsaamenss_issue/up-next?language=en

www.safeaustin.org/men-need-to-speak-up-against-violence-2/

So it seems that there are individuals and movements to end what is a horrific problem.

Dancingbear - am I comparing racists with women who experience abuse? No. Women like the OP have my sympathy. I've said so already. Nobody deserves it. But when the 'Muslim issue' appears on other message boards, you get two types of contributors. Firstly, those who want a genuine discussion, and will engage with all sides to see if there is a way forward. Secondly, those who want to snipe, tar everyone with the same brush and add nothing constructive.

I do think that looking at the issue of radical Muslim violence as only one of how many Brits have been killed is a bit narrow though. How many innocents have died worldwide? How many enslaved? Add on the issues of genital mutilation, grooming gangs and forced marriage, and there are clearly issues within that community. Again, you can't fix things by ostracising people in that community who would never do such horrific things.

And I really don't recognise the scenario where 'calling them out' is going to get them to moderate their behaviour: neither of us will see the other as their peer.

Granted in some situations this could get you in trouble, and put you at risk, but you're probably well able to judge that.

'Calling out' though, is a scale and can be subtle, or more overt depending on your risk assessment.

For example, a young lad or family member who would see you as a mentor or deserving of respect, yes fully call it out and explain why. He's still learning and will take cues from the men around him.
This would work with male friends too.

A work group, or your boss, or a bunch of unknown lads in the pub, probably not a good idea to call out behaviour, but you don't join in or yuk along. Don't react, change the subject, or move away.

This thread is going the same way all these threads go. I always worry that the OP leaves without a proper resolution.

Indeed it is, Inebriati. Predictable but tedious. OP, is there anything else you need from us?

Sorry! My bad for being side tracked. I’ll ignore any further derailment.

OP, happy to get my posts removed if they’re making things worse for you

I don't know if I have derailed. If it looks that way, apologies. But I've put up a list of projects which help men to give up destructive, abusive behaviour. Should I have not done it?

I've never understood this 'men need to solve the violence problem' argument.

I can sort of see the logic in saying that they're the cause so they need resolve it, but it pretty much breaks down in practical terms.

So if Dave runs a club aimed to help disaffected urban teenagers, he may make a real difference to the lives of a number of individuals. They may, for example, get into amateur boxing as an outlet for their anger issues. The fitness aspect of this might deter them from drugs and alcohol etc, and they might spend less time of the street. Conceivably, this could lead to said youths being less likely to be involved in violent incidents.

However, by running this club, Dave still can't be sure that the bloke whose pint he accidentally spills on Friday night isn't going to headbutt him. Herein, lies part of the problem with individual men trying to tackle the problem. A man can be a victim and people on here would point out that it's male violence, but said man is still powerless to change the likelihood of himself being a victim, outside of common sense measure like avoiding dodgy places (which would likely be called victim blaming were he a female). Dave is a victim, but because he is a male it's somehow seen as less of an issue.

Again, this is the Feminism section.

Again,this is the Feminism section.

Yes, a place where feminists seem very keen to debate male violence.

If people aren't interested in discussing the solution, then one has to wonder whether it is simply being used as a gotcha or an eternal source of martyrdom.

You can't discuss male violence and not talk about men. 🤷‍♀️

So, does discussion of male violence include identifying causes, possible solutions and positive action, or not? And does the discussion warrant male input or not?

If we're expanding the conversation, I'd add in the large number of women that use porn. I don't know why you think it's okay to excuse the 24 per cent of female visitors to Pornhub.

And the fact that, according to the study of Pornhub's Google Analystics data (generally accepted to be very accurate in determining gender), the principle viewers of 'ultra violent porn' are women, with it accounting for almost a quarter of the porn searches women make.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/bm9w7v/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn

So, does discussion of male violence include identifying causes, possible solutions and positive action, or not? And does the discussion warrant male input or not?

Well, how will we know if we don't have it?

What do you think? Is a solution likely to ever be found without male buy in?

Well, I'm a man and I was asked directly what positive action men are taking to sort out this serious and frankly unacceptable issue. So I provided about 10 links. Which were met by......silence. And I'm not sure why. I thought it might be seen as something encouraging - men identifying the problem and putting solutions into place. Who knows, someone affected, or even someone responsible, might see the links and realise that help is available.

I don't want a pat on the back. Any fool can google this stuff. But I was surprised at the lack of comments, positive or negative.