My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

*I wonder is there a connection, good men, male role models and women who are feminist? That really is just a thought I had now8

I guess we all come at 'feminism' from our different perspectives and experiences. I had a loving, supportive and encouraging father - who developed my intellectual life. and then I went on to have positive male teachers and other role models/spiritual fathers.

That is not to say that sexual politics did not/does not transgress. It does. But that now seems inevitable to some extent -even considering legal and social equality.

I also recognise that being me, as a happily married woman to a good man, is protected by society. I find this hard to explain. But I had a conversation with DH one night, and it became so clear to me that I am protected by society as a married woman. Somehow, I'm immediately seen as a respectable (!?) woman. As part of the whole fabric of patriarchal society, whereby women are married to men - their protectors! - and lucky me! I got a good one. And I worry that perpetuating this throws other good women under the bus - I'm almost certain it does.

Doesn't that lower you to the same standard as misogynistic people?

I think the difference is that it's, at least in part, based on lived experiences of unpleasant men while (in my limited experience) the average misogynist bases their hatred on cultural notions. In both cases there are, of course, exceptions and this is an extremely broad, blunt brush to paint with. I also imagine that such an assertion will be poorly received because questioning people's core perception frameworks is rarely something that's received well.

The thought that they (or anyone else) are judged for their genitals is so sad to me.

People who genuinely debase others based on an inherent, basic characteristic also upset me but, in the case of the majority of comments of that nature made here, I feel more sorry for the many who've had to live through both real and/or perceived injustices (which are no less harmful).

And I worry that perpetuating this throws other good women under the bus - I'm almost certain it does.

I also am in this situation and yes, your analysis is correct.

OP “ I can't bear being near some men in my life when they behave so appallingly”

Who are these men? If they’re outside your workplace, you don’t have to mix with them. The workplace is a bind of course, we have to pay bills. But if they are anywhere else, tell them to fuck off.

I can't say that I feel there is a low bar for men compared to women, or that I have found men to be worse people than women. As far as the structure of society, I don't know, I can't say I find the concept of patriarchy very helpful or that it explains what I see going on in the world, quite the opposite really, so I don't feel resentful about that. And as far as natural sex differences and the consequences that follow from them, I think that railing against nature is a quick way to drive yourself crazy, though I've had my moments of doing so.

I have pretty good relationships with my male relatives, and I always had an easier time fitting in with boys than girls growing up, so maybe that's the root of my feelings.

Male violence is for sure a difference between men and women that exists on a deep level. And I think it's something that affects society as a whole and women in particular, it shapes society in some ways.

Unlike some I think mostly, it's not created socially, it's a biologically based difference, one that we try and contain through a variety of social means. But it's always going to be an underlying fact.

However, I don't think it makes men worse than women, it's not about comparing male violence to less frequent female violence. Women have as much self-will, selfishness, ego, and will to power, maybe even as much aggression. Most of us have just some of that, some of the time, like most men. For a few that is who they are. Where they differ IMO is that they don't typically use physical violence or direct personal intimidation to try and accomplish whatever their goals are.

I feel a lot like you.
My father is an absolute chauvinist.
I've dealt with horrid men a lot in my life.
I've married a man who really tries, but is clearly damaged by the misogynistic views of his family, and it's only now we have a daughter I really see his faults.
I mostly avoid men in social situations.

Flushed

Unfortunately, I can't shake the feeling that men, good men, like my husband and father, only really care for the women they love - their mothers, wives, daughters.

Yes, this is where I am at now.
I don't want to think that they, my brothers, could be like them, they couldn't be misogynists.
But what are the chances that they are not? I know them as the cuddly, fun and nice men too me, I don't know how they act around other women or what they act like when not in our family home.
Goosefoot
I am trying to understand your post and this stuck out to me.
Is this in theory or do you think that women do or have the ability to act like this?
Women have as much self-will, selfishness, ego, and will to power, maybe even as much aggression

Goosefoot I am trying to understand your post and this stuck out to me.
Is this in theory or do you think that women do or have the ability to act like this? Women have as much self-will, selfishness, ego, and will to power, maybe even as much aggression

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking? Are you asking if I think there are actually real women who are selfish/egocentric/aggressive? If so, then yes, absolutely that has been my experience. There are bad women in the world who don't care about who they hurt if it gets them their own way.

I feel like you must be asking me something else though?

I hear you OP.

I read what people say about the kind, loving men they know and I know what they mean but then I think about porn and there is simply no way that the demand for degrading violent porn is fuelled merely by some tiny minority.

I read about what happens in war and you see how quickly the the surface veneer of male civility is ripped away and women are systematically raped when law and order disappears. Law and order which wasn't designed to protect women, only to protect men's property from other men.

I remember the everyday sexism when I was younger and they were all someone's beloved son and they haven't changed biologically since those days even if they do have to be more PC now.

My Dad is wonderful and growing up, I had a fabulous life, filled with love and opportunity.

It’s all been downhill from there.

Three relationships with men, all of them abusive (last one not so overt, but still there). I left him not too long ago after 20 years of marriage and though I miss being married in some ways, I mostly feel relief. I don’t think I’ll be looking for any more men.

I’ve worked with a lot of men and very few of them have truly treated me as an equal. It took a long time to dawn on me properly, but now I’ve seen it, I feel it’s everywhere.

Currently in a hideous situation at work, one higher boss who’s trying to avoid giving me a permanent contract, one immediate boss who would like to, but still seems to have the attitude women should be looked after, but with a side helping of looking at me in disbelief when I ask for anything extra.

I fear it’s getting worse with age. I’m demonstrably clever (qualifications higher level than either boss) but they seemingly had doubt over whether I’d be able to use a computer.

Apologies, that turned into a rant. It’s been a frustrating week. But yes, though I recognise good men exist, sexism (misogyny) is incredibly pervasive and honestly genuiunely a source of depressed feelings.

Goose
I am asking something else, thank you for not zoning in on that.
I have to think about it a bit more though, my idea is still forming.
(This is why I enjoy this board so much, you won't be made to feel stupid but will nudged to enhance and engage your ideas)

OncewasLangandClegtwo and antibles - I totally hear you. God it's uncomfortable, but I hear you, We don't want to think of men like this - but bloody hell, how else to explain the popularity of pornhub etc?

Hard as you may try you will never make 97% male violence equal to 3% female violence.
I do however thank you for showing us who you are.

Yup.

Most men are arseholes.

From my ex who hit me and psychologically fucked me up, to the man who took my virginity without asking, to men less qualified than me at work who mansplain simple concepts to me, to my neighbour who feels entitled to my time and bristles with irritation when I try to get rid of him, to the men on the street who expect me to smile at them, to the men in the street who stare me out, to my dad who cheated on my mum, to all of the men in my life who've made it obvious that they didn't find me sexually attractive (even if they were horrendously unattractive ) and all of the men in my life who made it obvious that they did find me sexually attractive. I've also never met a man who wasn't up for it (if he fancied me) regardless of his marital/professional-relationship-to-me status.

Men are arseholes.

Saying that (!) I'm in a relationship with one of them but I swear he's 90% oestrogen. He's the most caring man I've ever met. But I still wouldn't trust him (see above).

Name change as I don't like to admit this either but I feel largely the same. My father was a violent tyrant, my brother has followed suit. All my dealings with men have found them to be awful one way or another. My friends who have seemingly 'good' husbands actually have bullies, scroungers, and cheats, sometimes all three. I counsel women in my job and I hear stories that are sickening. My own mother divorced early on and never replaced. She has genuine pity for her married friends who are still being sexually harassed, bullied and belittled by their husbands. The more I see of life and people the more I think women are better off single

Bizarrely, I'm thnking of that Adam Kay junior doctor book when he talks about having a wank in the on call room and says something along the lines of who hasn't? And I just thought - 1) yuck that's gross, and 2) I reckon plenty of female medics haven't actually, Adam. I just felt like, bloody hell, the male normal must be some really fucked up place when it comes to sex.

Hard as you may try you will never make 97% male violence equal to 3% female violence

Amen.

The idea that women are as violent as men is absurd, honestly. Even if you were lucky enough to grow up around lovely men (which I was) you'd have to be wearing some industrial strength rose tinted glasses to think that's universal, or even the norm.

So all men are bad until they go out of their way to prove otherwise?
Bit of a depressing view to hold.
What are your views on other groups of people who have no say in their genetic makeup OP? Any sweeping statements to make about people born with disabilities? People born white? People with blonde hair?

“ The more I see of life and people the more I think women are better off single”

Yes. I’ve heard people saying that they think MeToo has damaged relationships - blame the predators surely - but I think, if it’s opened women’s eyes and minds more, great. Because there’s an idea that it must be terrible to be without a man but no, of course it’s not.

Going by marriage stats, most women don't feel this way.

I think porn essentially takes advantage of the most base drives, among the most difficult to control on a large scale, and potentially dangerous and which easily loses any veneer of civility.
Sex is dangerous stuff. That and being fed, really the two things that nature has to try and guarantee happen regularly if we are going to pass on our DNA. And nature and DNA don't really care how it happens or if we extinguish someone else in the process. In some ways it's a winner take all scenario, though we are a social species so its not individualistic.
That's why in many societies so much social effort goes into controlling sex in one way or another. It's so powerful it can be socially destructive.
Porn undermines that attempt to socially control its destructive potential, because of its effect on the brain, male sexual response. It's addictive, too. (Frankly I think pretty much the whole of the sexual revolution undermines social control of the sexual impulse, the principles that we are meant to accept around that. Every time we say, lets create more freedom around this there is a potential danger being unlocked there. Which isn't to say it shouldn't happen, but it's naive to imagine that it's risk free, some Disney version of romance. It's giving more freedom to a tiger.)
POrn of course though isn't really even there to benefit the viewer, much less the actors. It's there to benefit the distribution company, or those who control the means of distribution, or the credit card company. It combines the sex drive with avarice which is the other dangerous impulse that needs to be controlled in humans, but which capitalism treats as a good thing to be given as much freedom as possible.

The discussion always seems to be about consuming porn though. I've always had a latent fantasy about 'making porn with a partner, but I'm too scared of it hitting the web and getting seen by people I know, so I've never done it.