My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

If I was a woman that was distrustful of men before

Disgusted also. Self centered verbal wanking tends to have that effect on me.

It's a shame you missed the Gosling Derangement Syndrome part of the convo, OP, it was quite funny!

I don't think I've ever seen someone so upset about Ryan Gosling. Gosling Derangement Syndrome indeed

"HE'S NOT HANDSOME, WOMEN, GET IT IN YOUR HEAD!" I suppose he could have been drunk if he was in a different time zone. Or even if he wasn't

@Flower8919 have you ever heard of Schrödinger's Rapist? How exactly are women supposed to tell a rapist/abuser from a non-rapist/abuser? Personally my hot-take on the situation is I'd much rather a woman was wary considering the risks. You come really close in saying you'd cross the street to avoid freaking out women walking alone at night, I do the same. However given that most women are assaulted by someone they know you need to extend your thinking and not take it personally if a woman exhibits any degree of wariness of you personally.

Flower, it isn't all women. Don't take this board as being representative of anything other than a group with a certain way of looking at things. Certain individuals feel this way because of their experiences. Accept it, and make sure you aren't one of the arseholes. Then get on with your life.

It would just be nice if some women made an effort too to make the good men feel comfortable.

If a perceived threat to your 'good man' status - such as 'women need to give me more cookies and karma'' - then you aren't one of the good ones, you are marching at the head of the brass band leading the parade of red flags, waving a red flag.

The problem does always boil down to Schrodinger's Rapist - we don't know who the good ones are, often until it's too late. Sometimes men can seem really charming and good, and go on to harm women. It's not a case of "oh you lump us all together" - it's a case of "we can't tell if you, personally, are one of the good ones, and often cannot afford to simply give you the benefit of doubt." I do wish men would understand this.

Thelnebriati see I think the attitude of quickly labelling men and seeing red flags isn’t helping anyone and counterproductive.

Codependency doesn’t make someone not a “good man” because I know many women who are codependent. Yes, however, it’s not always healthy.

Jurgen That is very true. But I feel a lot of women do feel this way unfortunately. It would be good to be able to understand why and be able to change that.

"Seeing red flags isn’t helping anyone and counterproductive".

So women should just turn a blind eye? If a bloke acts in an immature, rude or aggressive etc manner, women should be understanding, and not label them?

Men need to sort out their own shit. Why not tell your friends/fathers/teammates/sons/brothers/colleagues to stop acting like arseholes, rather than tell women not to judge them for it?

DameHannahRelf I’m specifically mentioning this with regards to the lady who shouted red flat at the pp just for mentioning that he is a good man that would appreciate some support from women on not being labeled...

The double standards on here can be unreal. I’d imagine no one would speak like that off a spouse or a son..

Us females are so angered by the vulnerability we are under that we take it out on the first available target.

I think people need to chill.. otherwise with no discussion then nothing will move forward

red flag

It would just be nice if some women made an effort too to make the good men feel comfortable.

You’re not a child and I’m not your mother. It’s not my job to make you feel comfortable. The irony of a man complaining about women not making men feel comfortable, while not having one iota of understanding of why so many women don’t feel comfortable with men.

A good man would see that.

Ok imagine a bag of 100 M&Ms you know 6 of em contain a potentially fatal poison does that mean you eat 94 of em and hope? That’s essentially what you are asking all women to do, and the analogy goes further: women eats one and keels over people are like “well what the fuck do you expect you knew 6 of em were poisoned?” Women literally can’t win the way we have this setup.

Men need to sort out their own shit. Why not tell your friends/fathers/teammates/sons/brothers/colleagues to stop acting like arseholes, rather than tell women not to judge them for it?

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily aren’t we asking men to proactively support us so we can feel comfortable too? By speaking up against other men and practices who probably they have nothing to do with??

while not having one iota of understanding of why so many women don’t feel comfortable with men.

I’m pretty sure I saw that over and over again said man acknowledged why women are feeling vulnerable and that he crosses the street to make a woman feel not vulnerable.

I take issue with such attitude because we ARE alienating men who potentially could be supportive voices against sexual violence/harassment. So, doing disservice to women really..

Let’s not project our issues with certain men on the first man we see!

It would be good to be able to understand why and be able to change that.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I'm guessing there are sufficient examples in here of women's personal experiences, as well as across this board and elsewhere to give anyone a reasonable idea of why many women feel the way they do about men in general. What exactly are you finding difficult to understand?

As long as male violence and manipulation exists, there will always be women wary of men either due to direct or indirect experience. It is not just rape or domestic violence that women worry about. A man need not lay a hand on you, but can still intimidate and coerce and control his partner by various means to undermine her self worth and confidence. Women are capable of this too, but since the vast majority of women are heterosexual and this is a board about women's rights and experiences, then the conversations here will gravitate towards what women have experienced in their relationships with men. Some women are incredibly lucky and haven't had negative interactions with their fathers, sons, colleagues, partners, friends etc.

Men can examine their own behaviours and seek to improve themselves (as we all should!) and do their best to treat those around them well, teach their children the same values etc. That's really all anyone can do as an individual.

On a societal level, it would be good if predators and abusers were properly punished. So many rapists stroll out of prison in a few years while their victims suffer a lifetime of trauma. Abusive tactics are ignored even in plain sight, allowing women and children to be targeted again and again. And now women have to fight all over again for basic decency like survivors of rape and abuse needing single sex services, but being labelled as bigots for saying so.

It's not the job of women who are already struggling with their shitty experiences with men to have to find yet more ways to soothe the hurt feelings of other men.

When the overall negative experiences are reduced, then there will also be less women who are hurt and scared of men.

It would just be nice if some women made an effort too to make the good men feel comfortable

And how do women do this if they dont know who the good men are

I think.... it’s normal human desire to want to be treated as “innocent” until proven guilty, and to not be pigeon-holed and expected to defend yourself into acceptance.. I think that’s very reasonable and understandable.

There is a conflict of interest between “good men” and “vulnerable women” and I don’t think this undermines any side of the argument. And I think both sides should hear the other out to reach somewhere.

At the end of the day we do want the “good men” to be a voice for reaching out to the men that don’t seem to listen to women’s voices, and support our cause... don’t we?!!!

Ambitiouslyfit, you are right about dialogue. Nothing ever gets really fixed without it. But this isn't the right board for that dialogue. It needs to be done elsewhere. The problem of violence in society is complex, nuanced and as old as the hills. Internet message boards are not a great medium, and a quick exchange on FWR won't sort much. This is more a place for some women to get stuff off their chest. And there's nothing wrong with that.

it’s normal human desire to want to be treated as “innocent” until proven guilty, and to not be pigeon-holed and expected to defend yourself into acceptance..

I'm not sure what this statement is in reference to. I realise there are multiple threads of conversations in this topic.

When I apply for jobs, especially if I might be working with vulnerable people or handling sensitive information, background checks are automatically carried out. I don't take it personally nor do I get offended / upset and say "Gosh I don't know why all these employers are making the assumption that I'm a devious character. I'm a thoroughly pleasant human being and I would never hurt a child or steal money. It hurts my feelings that no matter how good my job application is, I have to prove I have a clean record before I'm allowed to work at any of these organisations."

I know there is a minority of bad people who will use any means possible to hurt others and that therefore organisations have to exert caution when hiring. As a result, everyone has to undergo background checks. I don't take it as some assessment of my character or honour or whatever you want to call it.

Similar when queuing at airport security and the immigration counter. It's tedious and annoying at times, but I don't view it as 'I'm being treated as the bad guy here'.

Can we get some perspective on this? I’m a man and I don’t walk the Earth with feminists pointing fingers at me saying I might be a potential rapist 24/7, the measures women take to keep themselves safe are usually much subtler. It’s only really in the online sphere this sort of topic comes up, and honestly have at it. I get what’s at stake.

I’m also not one of these mythical “good men” either. I’m a mess half the time I’m sure I have as many wrong ideas rolling around my head as right ones. Not entirely sure how to sort which is which on some days. However for what it’s worth I’m not offended by any of this class analysis it seems pretty obvious most perpetrators of rape/sexual assault are men, I’m not sure what is to be gained to obfuscate/ dance around that fact.

Call a spade a spade, some men are dangerous, there is no realistic way to sort which is which, the rational response is for women to be cautious. How is that remotely contentious?

Yes women can be cautious. It is sad it has to be like that but i understand why that is necessary. However there is a difference between being cautious and not trusting a man straight away compared to being negative and harsh on all men which a lot of women do but is unnecessary

I’m also not one of these mythical “good men” either. I’m a mess half the time I’m sure I have as many wrong ideas rolling around my head as right ones. Not entirely sure how to sort which is which on some days. However for what it’s worth I’m not offended by any of this class analysis it seems pretty obvious most perpetrators of rape/sexual assault are men, I’m not sure what is to be gained to obfuscate/ dance around that fact.

Lo! An actual example of a man NOT exhibiting red flags in his Mumsnet comments.

Thank fuck for that. I was about to delete all the penis-havers off my Facebook friend list 😂

I’m pretty sure I saw that over and over again said man acknowledged why women are feeling vulnerable and that he crosses the street to make a woman feel not vulnerable.

Yet still thinks that women are over reacting and wants them to care more about how men feel. It’s good that he crosses the road, but I think, while he understands that the woman may be frightened, he doesn’t understand or respect the reasons why.

Flower I think IRL many of us will be somewhere on a scale of the two ends you describe and where we sit at any time will depend on our experiences. I've had a few bad ones over the years so I guess with men I don't yet know well enough to decide "good/bad" I'll be honest and say I'm somewhere between the middle point and being harsh on them. I won't necessarily let this show and as I'm a people pleaser generally (good old social conditioning!) I'm quite sure no one would know I'm still sussing them out.

I think the fact that so, so many MMers particularly on say, FWR, have had some very bad experiences means you hear the voice of someone who knows what the extremes of misogyny feel like. Hence many posts which you may think of as negative and harsh. To those affected it's experience that you're hearing.