My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

However there is a difference between being cautious and not trusting a man straight away compared to being negative and harsh on all men which a lot of women do but is unnecessary

Are you aware that you are repeatedly posting your complaint that women not being nice enough in Feminism and Women's Rights?

And my world certainly isn't better for their existence - I see them as a threat to me, and I don't see what advantage I glean from some women being wary/frightened of my because of my sex.

Why do you think you are entitled to an advantage?

What I am wondering is what Andrea Dworkin wondered more than once. Why are you telling us?

“What’s involved in doing something about all of this? The men’s movement seems to stay stuck on two points. The first is that men don’t really feel very good about themselves. How could you? The second is that men come to me or to other feminists and say: “What you’re saying about men isn’t true. It isn’t true of me. I don’t feel that way. I’m opposed to all of this.”

^And I say: don’t tell me. Tell the pornographers. Tell the pimps. Tell the warmakers. Tell the rape apologists and the rape celebrationists and the pro-rape ideologues. Tell the novelists who think that rape is wonderful. Tell Larry Flynt. Tell Hugh Hefner. There’s no point in telling me. I’m only a woman. There’s nothing I can do about it. These men presume to speak for you. They are in the public arena saying that they represent you. If they don’t, then you had better let them know.”
― Andrea Dworkin ^

I think class analysis has its uses, but all too often is used in a blinkered fashion.

If we are to say that men as a class are responsible for the violence perpetrated by other members of their class, does the same follow for other groups? Are all black people responsible for knife crime? Can we go into a Brexit thread and tell the people moaning about racists that they are also guilty by association through being a White Briton?

So, does discussion of male violence include identifying causes, possible solutions and positive action, or not? And does the discussion warrant male input or not?

It doesn't warrant uninvited male input, no. There has to be somewhere where women can discuss their experiences without a man sweeping in to tell us how to do it more efficiently.

Well, I'm a man and I was asked directly what positive action men are taking to sort out this serious and frankly unacceptable issue. So I provided about 10 links. Which were met by......silence. And I'm not sure why. I thought it might be seen as something encouraging - men identifying the problem and putting solutions into place. Who knows, someone affected, or even someone responsible, might see the links and realise that help is available.

Nobody invited men to participate in this female space, the Feminism section. People's posts get glossed over all the time: men certainly shouldn't complain that women here haven't responded to them. You say you don't want a pat on the head, but you do expect the cookie of a reply, don't you? Why? Women come together here to share their experiences. We do not want men to interfere with that, much less try to set the agenda by complaining that we didn't give their contribution due deference.

Post on the rest of the site, fine, it's for parents. You'd have to be completely tone deaf though to expect to shape the discussion on the Feminism boards. Sometimes we want to just talk among ourselves, and I think it would be a step forward if men would just accept that.

If we are to say that men as a class are responsible for the violence perpetrated by other members of their class, does the same follow for other groups? Are all black people responsible for knife crime?

Are Black women responsible for what Black men do? Is that your question?
Srsly?

If the site moderators didn't want men posting then they'd prohibit it. Until then, you don't get to police it. I, for one, like hearing men's input, especially around issues that will require male interaction to resolve. Don't try and speak on behalf of all women because we don't all agree with you. Speak for yourself.

Are Black women responsible for what Black men do? Is that your question?

Is that what I wrote?

But indeed there are other classes aside from just men and women. The class of 'BAME people' includes both sexes, and there are undoubtedly women who have influence over their teenage male sons, for example.

But suppose we just stick to the 'men are collectively responsible for male violence' argument for now....does this apply to all men?

So, for example, is a gay man collectively responsible for the homophobic violence perpetrated by a homophobic thug? Is a British Pakistani male collectively responsible for the racially motivated violence of a BNP thug?

Or do we need separate sub-categories to decide which men are collectively responsible for which crimes?

I do not engage with disingenuous people.

I do think that looking at the issue of radical Muslim violence as only one of how many Brits have been killed is a bit narrow though. How many innocents have died worldwide? How many enslaved? Add on the issues of genital mutilation, grooming gangs and forced marriage, and there are clearly issues within that community.

I wonder which sex are responsible for the vast majority of these 'issues' within this particular community?

In fact, in all the different communities I wonder which sex are responsible for the vast majority of violence, injustice and killings?

Nonny, these are the first ones I found;

Great, thanks! I expect those who think it's somehow the job of feminists to sort out all the world's ills can use those links as a starting point and I hope they will be vocal supporters of such endeavours by men.

Which were met by......silence.

Not really. I was distracted by TV, and an early night. Good morning!

Bad Nonny, don't you know you're mean to be available 24/7 to respond when needed as a good mummy should?

(This thread continues to be very telling.)

Or meant, even.

men are collectively responsible for male violence

Could you please quote an example of this notion being expressed? It seems like a strawman. If it has, I'm very sorry and it's a notion I personally find silly.

But I was surprised at the lack of comments, positive or negative

Oh good lord

BitofFun - I just want to say what a good blog that is. Here it is again:

victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

Nobody minds men posting on the feminism section - it's the what about the men posters that are so jarring when women are trying to talk about male violence against women. As you can see from the blog above, the reverse rarely happens.

Until then, you don't get to police it

Your entire post is ‘policing bitoffun

You could have quite easily posted giving your opinion and your opinion only

But you didn’t...

TheBewildernessisWeetabix interesting quote.

I've seen that Twitter allows profiles of pedophiles who are open about it, yet women who state things like 'you cannot change biological sex' are banned.
Reddit has quite a number of sub-reddits for men to discuss their rape fantasies, to share pictures and videos of upskirting and other acts of non-consensual voyeurism. Plenty on sex with minors and various other disturbing topics.

The internet is littered with men discussing violence against women. Yet somehow it's always groups and forums where women gather to discuss their experiences and share their frustrations, worries and disappointments that get told how mean and silly we are and that we are the ones at fault for not having the right ideas about men.
Why are women repeatedly told off as if we are spiteful and uncooperative, while men on the internet don't get lectured about their words and habits and thoughts?

I have a comment if it helps?
I only clicked the first link and 'Safe Austin' appears to be run by women.

There are so many ways you can raise the bar with your guy friends and within your relationships to build a culture of respect together with women and girls

This is from white ribbon...which is pretty much what most FWR regulars have been saying

As a few others have said I'm also comfortable with men joining in any discussion and Jurgen on the whole I've enjoyed your contributions. I think much of the debate here has been robust yet civil.

Jargoyle it's not about policing what people say sometimes it's a case of "reading the room ". This is a feminist corner where many of us have had some very damaging experiences with the opposite sex. Those experiences will shape our contributions and views. No one is saying all men are shits but the fact is most violence is perpetrated by men and it's clear the solution isn't obviously clear cut. Whataboutery and comparisons to violence by BAME people doesn't add anything it just comes across as a gotcha.

On the bright side though - it's good to see you on a FWR thread that hasn't become All About the Trans as I know you've been concerned about the lack of them.

OP, I feel the same. I was going to try to post something encouraging and then I read the article about men stealing breastmilk and I'm finally done. I'm fond of my husband, and nowadays he takes a reasonable share of responsibility for looking after our children, so I'm not going to leave him, but there's not a chance I'd give another moment of my life to looking after another man.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix, that is a fantastic quote from Dworkin. I wish I had read her as a teenager instead of believing the people who said she was ugly and shouty and dungareey and wanted all babies to grow in test tubes. The insults used to stop young women listening to feminists vary, but the point is always the same.

Jargoyle
I've never understood this 'men need to solve the violence problem' argument.

Its simple; the victim of bullying cannot fix the bullying.

''Why We Don’t Recommend Couples Counseling for Abusive Relationships''
The primary reason we don’t recommend couples counseling is that abuse is not a “relationship problem.” Couples counseling may imply that both partners contribute to the abusive behavior, when the choice to be abusive lies solely with the abusive partner.

www.thehotline.org/2014/08/01/why-we-dont-recommend-couples-counseling-for-abusive-relationships/

I do not engage with disingenuous people.

If my posts came across as being a bit confrontational I apologise - I'd had a few glasses of wine, and let's be honest it's a pretty controversial topic.

But I'm in no way being facetious/disingenuous. I've love to read a reasoned response to my questions and I'm happy to be proved wrong, or consider viewpoints which may not have occurred to me before.

I struggle with the real application of class analysis as because, as I mentioned above, there are many different categories of men and it doesn't sit well with me to say that all men, even BAME individuals, are responsible for racially driven violence as in the example above. By extension, I would use the same logic to question whether feminist supporting men are culpable for other men's transgressions when driven by misogynistic beliefs. You could even dilute it down to say we are all responsible for 'human violence' as male violence is perpetrated by a human in 100% of cases.

I understand that using the race analogy makes for uncomfortable reading, but sex is also a protected characteristic so I'd imagine that many men feel it unfair to be collectively blamed for the actions of others - I often wonder if it is only accepted because it has become so commonplace in feminism and isn't dissimilar to how racism (and indeed sexism) would've been much more likely to go unquestioned in our grandparents' era. I do find it a bit frustrating how posters are so quick to denigrate men for porn usage, for example, but then go silent/refuse to engage when people post statistics seeming to evidence that women also watch a lot of porn and actually watch more violent content than men.