My feelings about men

[BoxyLoxy]

Name changed, obviously.

Im a regular on here although mostly lurking.

I was wondering how other people reconcile their feelings about how fucking awful the patriarchy is, how men as a group are basically toxic and even the 'good ones' have an incredibly low bar for being decent humans.

Im married, and seriously reconsidering it because I feel this ongoing utter despair at the myriad injustices I put up with. I would NEVER EVER pursue a relationship with a man if I did leave.

Anyone else feel the same? Is this normal?!

I feel differently to you because I agree that men as a group, and The Patriarchy TM can be pretty awful, I DO think I know some very decent human beings and a lot of them are men. I suppose if I think about it I think that broadly speaking humankind isn't that great but I do know some amazingly kind, generous individuals of both sexes -and some awful ones! So my personal experience differs from my broader world view, and I'm also aware that a lot of people aren't as lucky as I've been - never been assaulted or in an abusive relationship- but I know some are and that we all need to work together to support them and stop it from happening. I also think that misogyny is rampant and sexism holds women back, and we have to fight that together - but I'd include men in that too. So from my position of privilege, I don't feel the same way as you.

There’s a lot of misogyny on here....

Sorry you feel this way. We live in this society with violence and sexualisation - but everyone is an individual.

I am lucky - my father and grandfather were incredible human beings. Happily married to a great man who treats women and girls as they should. I have met men who are toxic.

I’m in healthcare. I see a lot of crap that you allude to, but also a lot of men and boys who love and care for the women/girls (often very unwell) in their lives.

Think of David Challen - inspirational!

Think of the men who stopped Brock Tuner in the US assaulting the young woman.

Men who stood up to be counted for women

BoxyLoxy
How long have you felt like thia? I just ask because I had a moment a realisation about men and women's place in their world. That's how I first start reading this board.
I was angry and astonished that everyone else around me couldn't see it. And once you see it you can't unsee it.
I think small everyday actions help, a stupid as it probably sounds, I stopped smiling at everyone all the time,people from my area I passed on the street, shop assistants ect no need to smile constantly a quick hello will do but it's something girls and then women are expected too do.And I felt a tiny bit freer for it.

I'm sort of a separatist in my heart. Not in practice though. Just, most of my important relationships are with other women, even though I'm straight. And other than that I have a son, I could quite happily just spent time with women.

I don't hate men as a class, though. I think men suffer under patriarchy in different ways to women, and that feminism ultimately is a positive for men too. I feel a lot of class solidarity with working class men (yeah, often it isn't reciprocated) also.

I was widowed 28 years ago, but my late DH was an absolute sweetheart of a man. We were together for 16 years, during which he came to the hospital every night and weekend that I was on call and cooked dinner for me in the doctors’ mess. He bathed our babies, changed their nappies, did the shopping - and taught me the meaning of love, after my abusive childhood. He is proof that decent men do exist. Sadly though, there seem to be very large numbers of totally shitty ones too!

I think a few years now and increasingly so., I just feel like it's building so much it's becoming intolerable. I can't bear being near some men in my life when they behave so appallingly without even realising that theu are doing so. Im not talking full on harassment but the ongoing grind of constant sexist jokes, constant macho behaviour, constantly trying to get a rise out of women, entitled sense of their own brilliance, lack of judgement, inability to empathise, I could go on. These are generally 'naice' middle class very well educated men by the way.

In 1990 I stopped trying to reason with unreasonable people.
That precluded any possibility of anything beyond superficial acquaintance with males.
It is the mansplaining, you see. I have two sons and get all the mansplaining I can tolerate from them.

I believe that the average person has to rationalise the unpleasantness in the world to avoid being driven mad. Assigning it to a particular group is one way to cope because this offers an opposing group to turn to for support. Comfort and self assurance is as much defined by who we other as it is by those we attempt to find commonality with.

I've, generally, enjoyed and do still enjoy the company of men. Even though I appreciate what you are saying about 'macho'/patriarchal politics. Of course, I do!

I feel a strong sense of sisterhood. That all women are connected and united by their essential femaleness ( regardless of class, race, and even species....); even as I actively dislike certain women, and am not fond of certain types of 'feminine' culture.

We are all subject to the general atmosphere and culture within which we live - and we all have an 'allotted' place within that culture. At the end of the day, though we are all human beings ( & that is what Women's Liberation/Feminism has been fighting for: for women to be considered full human beings).

I'm heterosexual and long married; and I've certainly felt the things you describe at many points in my life; but I now tend to see it all as part of the 'stuff' of human life on earth. some of it is just interpersonal conflict, and some of it is more to do with sexual politics.......

I also have two sons.......and they are very much a part of me........

And some of my most healing experiences have come via men.......

constantly trying to get a rise out of women,
thats the behaviour of the bully who knows there's nothing you can do to stop him. Men who do it can't see it, but all they achieve is to belittle themselves.

My younger brother was the golden child who used to spend a lot of his time gloating in my face about this and goading me. If I ever asked my parents for help dealing with him, I was told that as the older more sensible child I should be able to manage him.
When I see adults behaving in the same gloating, taunting way, it just makes them look immature and spoiled to me.

Women did not assign male violence to males. They own it.

It's really hard OP. Really really hard.

The reason I don't hate men is because my father and my husband were/are wonderful men who have only enriched my life. I also have 2 sons who I adore.

But it is really difficult - like a pp said, my most enriching relationships have been with women - my mother, my sisters, my friends. I'm friendly with a fair few men, but I don't have male friends anymore, simply because sooner or later, every male friend I've ever had has hit on me, and I'm not into that shit - I'm married now, and I'm not interested.

I do think that if DH and I ever split up (not likely) I would not seek another relationship with a man. I'm only sexually attracted to men, so I'm not sure if I would actually stick to that long term, but often times, when I see the shit that men as a class are responsible for, I;m all for women only communes

Women did not assign male violence to males. They own it

Women can be pretty ugly too.......We are all individual human beings trying to negotiate our up-bringing and culture......though we all start off with a difffernt stack of cards.

Women can be pretty ugly too.......We are all individual human beings trying to negotiate our up-bringing and culture

I would say it's easier to write off transgressions made by individuals you identify with as allies (this applies to nearly every division possible, not just women or men vs women).

Gronky

Is it assigned to a particular group or observed? I feel it's observed.

Justhada

I have 3 brothers and I really feel the same about them that they are good men so I know there are good men out there.
I wonder is there a connection, good men, male role models and women who are feminist? That really is just a thought I had now.

Hard as you may try you will never make 97% male violence equal to 3% female violence.
I do however thank you for showing us who you are.

I feel more cautious around men I think and less trusting of them...(due to being raped as a teen) but I do know men who I feel are good, kind and compassionate individuals so I guess I try to take people on their own individual merit. In dating terms, I definitely prefer to date women

Is it assigned to a particular group or observed? I feel it's observed.

I feel it's a lot of factors at work, some of which feed back into one another. I'm personally a subscriber to the male variability hypothesis (in short, there are more lunatic males but there are also more idiots and more genius males in the population, though the mean mental function remains the same as for women) even though it's controversial. At the same time, once one forms an attitude about one group vs another, it's hard to escape re-enforcing that attitude (and doing so is no comment on an individual's character, it's perfectly natural).

I can't be bothered to give men the benefit of the doubt anymore. I've been nice, seen both sides, for years. Now I'm getting more critical towards both men and women. But men I'll tolerate are getting fewer and further between.

Unfortunately, I can't shake the feeling that men, good men, like my husband and father, only really care for the women they love - their mothers, wives, daughters. They're not really aware of the lot of womankind, as a class.

This is why feminism is so important, and has nothing to do with the good men in our lives, but is all to do with being good for women, as a class.

Gosh. This thread makes me quite sad. I recognise that objectively the patriarchy exists and that male violence exists but it's hard to reconcile with my life, which is full of wonderful, kind, gentle men and boys.

I can't imagine hating someone or even judging them because of their sex. Doesn't that lower you to the same standard as misogynistic people? I have two kids, a boy and a girl. They are both beautiful, kind and gentle. The thought that they (or anyone else) are judged for their genitals is so sad to me.

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.