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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Lang Cleg 2

999 replies

TiredofthisBSbutIstandwithLang · 22/01/2020 12:17

New thread as we got to 1000.

OP posts:
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11
JustineMumsnet · 22/01/2020 15:23

@VortexofBloggery

Ha! Putting the boot in after she's gone. Naice. Not.

Well we'd rather not discuss individual bans Vortex, as we've said before, but in this case (judging by posts on this thread and the last) I'm not sure folks would have accepted our discretion. We don't share this type of information lightly.

JustineMumsnet · 22/01/2020 15:23

@FemiLANGul

With respect *@JustineMumsnet*

Worraloadashite

Which bits exactly?

JustineMumsnet · 22/01/2020 15:26

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER

As none of is have witnessed rudeness or aggression I suppose it’s possible that Lang has been sending abusive emails/private messages?

Seems unlikely, mind you. 😂

We've got a whole load of examples of rudeness to mods Dulang, but as just said we'd rather not share private messages publicly if we can avoid it.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 22/01/2020 15:33

@justinemumsnet

where users are persistently aggressive towards, and disparaging of, our moderation team
I'm sure in not the only one surprised by this.

persistently aggressive

I've read so many of langs posts and can't ever recall her being persistently aggressive.
Persistent yes, but not aggressive.
Are we all being persistently aggressive now? How do we know what counts?
Is that really all that's going on? What about JPs claims? And that other one Sakura on twitter?

Binterested · 22/01/2020 15:34

I have been rude about the mods team for using the words ‘haranguing’ and ‘shouting’ to describe intelligent women talking about things that affect them. I’ve even asked for an apology for those words. I wouldn’t accept it from any other commercial enterprise.

So the argument that the poor mods are having to endure a hostile work environment is not winning me over I’m afraid. There is talk about your users which is not, as you would say ‘in the spirit’.

Also the fact is that your guidelines make no sense. We can say that Karen White is a man. But not that (insert name of another TRA) is. Because one is a criminal and one isn’t. That’s not a sound philosophical basis for discussion. This is why it’s hard for us and hard for your mods - policing something nonsensical is not easy. It’s in your hands to change that.

dragonlangx · 22/01/2020 15:35

I have seen the email that was sent to Lang, obviously I shall not publish the details here, but not one of the posts that were quoted could be considered rude or aggressive.
They were critical of the rules and did point our examples of what could be taken as coercive control as a way to show the moderators how they are being used by those who are happy to take us down.

It seems to me that Mumsnet HQ simply does not like being shown that they have taken the wrong stance here and are targeting those who are pointing it out.

Thus playing into the hands of those who want us to shut up about these issues - not a good look

nachthexe · 22/01/2020 15:36

Oh ffs. Don’t make me try and work spinster again. I tried it because twitter banned when it first started, but it made my head ache. Is it better now? Shall I try and dredge up my log in info?
Gah.

Imstinkyeddie · 22/01/2020 15:37

Ah.
Well there you go.
Dissent will not be tolerated!!!

Yesterdaysleftovers · 22/01/2020 15:37

I am another lurker who has emerged just to support Lang. Her posts are always insightful and I have learned loads through her. It is also really, really disappointing to see MN succumb to bullying.

Joisanofthedales · 22/01/2020 15:39

I think it very much depends on what you consider rude and how robust the moderator is. As a teacher I have been on the receiving end of abuse from parents face to face, usually because their little angel was often a little devil. Learning how to deal with these situations, to the benefit of all, is part of becoming a good teacher.
What I don't understand is how langcleg's sometimes assertive posts on the fwr guidelines are so damaging to the moderators that she had to be banned. Are the moderators so delicate that receiving criticism via posts damaged them? The word snowflakes comes to mind.

VortexofBloggery · 22/01/2020 15:39

@justinemumsnet are you saying that LangCleg messaged the mods privately, and was rude/aggressive? Because, a lot of us spend a lot of time on here, "products" for your advertising customers, and I've never seen anything remotely rude or aggressive from LangCleg on the boards. Judging from the 1000+ comments neither has anyone else. So you'll have to excuse the disbelief, because it's hard to believe.

anonymousLangFan · 22/01/2020 15:42

I am really, REALLY surprised at Justine's answer. And disappointed.

whitehandledkitchenlang · 22/01/2020 15:44

Women learn the hard way to speak out. We ask nicely. We get ignored. We ask again. We're told we're wrong/imagining it/exaggerating. Slowly we work out how and when to speak and the words to use. Sometimes something changes. Often it doesn't. So the cycle begins again. We ask nicely, using the knowledge we gained first time around. We get ignored. We ask again and we may get some platitudes, along with the being wrong/imagining/exaggerating. Something begins to shift in us. We begin to lose the 'niceness' that we have had inculcated in us since birth.
Over and over it happens. Until one day, we have had enough. We are no longer patient. We are angry. We weren't wrong/imagining/exaggerating.

Angry women are a threat to the status quo. It can be uncomfortable being the angry woman. It can be uncomfortable witnessing the angry woman. But make no mistake the anger is justified.

What I am seeing here is many angry women. Whose anger is justified. Yet within that anger there is dignity and eloquence. Because we have had to learn to keep that anger in check and articulate precisely what the problem is. Over and over and over.

Lang is the epitome of dignity and eloquence. Explaining over and over what the problem is. Measured and considered and clear in her reasoning as to why safeguarding is paramount and why there cannot be any sacred castes who are above being questioned.

So why is she (and the many other patient, eloquent posters on FWR) not being listened to? Whose interests are being served by trying to prevent those voices being heard?

I can't remember who said it but the quote along the lines of 'if you want to know who holds the power, look at who you are not allowed to criticise', seems apt here.

More and more women are becoming increasingly and justifiably angry. And finding ways beyond MN to connect up to channel that anger.

FleetsumNLangCleg · 22/01/2020 15:49

OnlyTheTit I am using a private email domain. Will try a different one, thanks

My email address has a dash in it, someone suggested that might matter on some platforms?

Saucery · 22/01/2020 15:49

I don’t think it’s fair to imply abuse and aggression on the part of LangCleg then say “But of course, we’d never publish examples, that wouldn’t be right”.

ThePurported · 22/01/2020 15:50

We can say that Karen White is a man. But not that (insert name of another TRA) is. Because one is a criminal and one isn’t. That’s not a sound philosophical basis for discussion.

It really isn't. It's very easy to forget which individuals have the 'no misgendering' privilege. And now we know that there is some arbitrary rule on how many deletions you can have in total before you get chucked out.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 22/01/2020 15:51

@Justinemumsnet

Your probably aware but JP is gloating and updating twitter constantly about this. Even taking screen shots from spinster.
Is accusing Lang of DARVO. Is saying the ceo of mumsnet agrees Langs a bully.
This is what Lang been talking about and has been so persistent about.
It's right there to see on JPs twitter.

Mossyrock · 22/01/2020 15:55

whole load of examples of rudeness to mods

@JustineMumsnet you said aggression though.

None of us have seen aggression from Lang. Over 100s and 1000s of posts about a controversial topic from a safeguarding expert. It simply doesn't ring true.

Rudeness is entirely subjective. AIBU is full of it. Surely a repeated head tilty 'did you mean to be so rude?' would have sufficed?

60 out of how many posts?

I just don't believe that the MN mods are too thin skinned to deal with this. Or felt so threatened that you were obliged to ban Lang of all people.

dragonlangx · 22/01/2020 15:57

Oh and the posts quoted in the email weren't any of the ones that were deleted

Saucery · 22/01/2020 16:02

You’d think they would have included the ‘aggressive’ communications, too, in any correspondence Hmm

I’m filing ‘aggressive’ alongside ‘shouting’ and ‘haranguing ‘ in my Big Box Of MNHQ Hyperbole.

Cascade220 · 22/01/2020 16:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 22/01/2020 16:08

Dragonlang

Oh and the posts quoted in the email weren't any of the ones that were deleted

Curiouser and curiouser!
'Would it be of any use, now,' thought Alice, 'to speak to this mouse? Everything is so out-of-the-way down here, that I should think very likely it can talk: at any rate, there's no harm in trying.

Maybe a thread to Catalogue
Langs posts for the last while is needed?

R0wantrees · 22/01/2020 16:12

Lang is the epitome of dignity and eloquence. Explaining over and over what the problem is. Measured and considered and clear in her reasoning as to why safeguarding is paramount and why there cannot be any sacred castes who are above being questioned.

So why is she (and the many other patient, eloquent posters on FWR) not being listened to? Whose interests are being served by trying to prevent those voices being heard?

Lang also understands & can identify many of the actual dynamics used in coercive control & abuse.
The majority of people cannot.

Conference Coercive Control host events & produce newsletters to increase knowledge. www.coercivecontrol.co.uk/

CCC, 'Trolling and Online Abuse - Is there a difference?'
(extract)
"The ringleaders behind the mobbing campaigns are very secretive.

They would never admit what they are doing. They play the “I've done nothing, it’s someone else“ card.
Their aims are:
*Character assassination

  • To ensure others distance themselves from the targeted individual.
  • Recruit others to abuse on their behalf ( #abusebyproxy) using information with a special significance aimed at the targeted individual, knowing that the bespoke targeting will cause immense distress.
  • Inciting others to mock, goad, provoke the target into responding. Ringleaders will build up their network of proxies to perpetuate the falsehood that the targeted individual is the problem. It allows them to retire* some of the original proxies who are then replaced with new proxies to keep the mobbing sustained & the abuse hidden. The reason is to more effectively turn the tables and direct the abuse away from the mobbing campaign and onto the target whilst giving the impression the target is belligerent and antagonises others. Even better if the mobbing campaign has successfully provoked a reaction. They will use that reaction to make their point that the target is THE problem, the target is abusive, harassing, stalking etc etc. The ringleader relies on the knowledge that the target is hyper vigilant and will be aware of a smear campaign specifically targeted towards them. BUT Because of the bespoke nature of the abuse, not everyone will be privy to the triggers and so will be oblivious to what is going on.

The natural reaction for a victim of mobbing is to highlight what is going on & the common response of those around the victim is disbelief.
So, what often happens is that victim becomes increasingly desperate to point out what is happening but, because the ringleader has been able to retreat, only the proxies are visible. So the abuse is effectively invisible in plain sight." (continues)

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1110452108183195649.html

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 22/01/2020 16:12

It’s so weird, I mean, many of us* are probably a bit ‘rude’ at times, and text can seem more aggressive than the same words would come across in a face to face chat but Lang is the long term poster most of us would describe as ‘least likely to be aggressive’ (along with ROwantrees).

*I am, it’s part of my ‘Be More Nana’/‘Be More Magdalen’ pledge, although I don’t think I’ve ever been rude to a Mumsnet employee.

Literal violence and other Newspeak is reaching it’s inevitable conclusion and leaving us all incapable of taking anyone’s word on anything. Perhaps Lang witll ‘bring the receipts’ if MN aren’t willing?

ThePankhurstConnection · 22/01/2020 16:12

test

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