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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel bullying Posie

409 replies

LiterallyProblematic · 17/01/2020 08:16

FFS! Why did a she have to do this? It’s so divisive and gratuitously mean!
twitter.com/bindelj/status/1217986645871546368?s=20

OP posts:
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BovaryX · 18/01/2020 19:54

If it turns out that is the RIGHT who end up standing with women and not the very confused LEFT — then that is to the shame of the LEFT, and not to women.

Briliant post Bickering

Creepster · 18/01/2020 20:00

Just don’t say that to Julia Long
We have discussed it at length.

Goosefoot · 18/01/2020 20:08

It's worth noting that Posie was always left wing too - until this whole thing kicked off, when she was rejected by the left

There were a whole raft of people who until quite recently were considered leftists, or classical liberals, who now seem to be considered right or far right or alt right.

Twistables · 18/01/2020 20:09

The Fat Controller makes a very important point - for many women being gender critical is not about feminism but about protecting children from harm. These feminists presuming that others are just 'bad' at doing feminism is entirely missing the point. Many women aren't motivated in this way

theyrazedparadise · 18/01/2020 20:15

Just a comment re feminists being 'unfriendly, brusque' etc.

Feminists have personalities, feelings, bad days, overwhelm or whatever else drives attitude and emotion.

Judge feminists by their work.

I've never met Bindel, am unlikely to ever meet Bindel, can't imagine she'd be much interested if we did meet - all irrelevant. Her work stands on its own.

Feminists are not all required to be nurturers of other women. Sometimes their work is in another, valuable direction, or their empathy is directed elsewhere. If we accept that from other humans (men and non-feminist women) we should accept it from feminists.

BovaryX · 18/01/2020 20:21

This is the type of slur I'm talking about, here on this thread. No explanation given. Also Posie Parker harms women, here on this thread.... Again no proof or explanation given...I'm not sure about that either but I know that there are several posters on this thread that really, really fucking hate Posie

Butter
It's just a bunch of gratuitous ad hominems with no supporting evidence. As you say, it's indicative of a bizarre fixation and a desire to demonize anyone who questions the Increasingly totalitarian ^liberal' establishment......

SapphosRock · 18/01/2020 20:40

BovaryX

What more 'evidence' do you need? People have told you exactly what PP said on here - obviously the MN posts are now deleted and Posie banned. Repeating it all again or sharing screen shots is likely to be swiftly deleted.

Google anything mentioned on this thread if you need to see it for yourself.

Continuing to claim that something hasn't happened because you personally haven't witnessed it is really odd.

LangCleg · 18/01/2020 20:43

People have told you exactly what PP said on here

Nothing I posted about was said by Posie on this site.

Cascade220 · 18/01/2020 20:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BovaryX · 18/01/2020 21:00

What more 'evidence' do you need? People have told you exactly what PP said on here-

Sapphos
You have made a number of accusations and you have provided zero evidence for any of them. PP is doing real harm to women. You said this repeatedly. Substantiate it. With a link to something concrete. Which part of the onus is on you to verify your accusations don't you comprehend?

BovaryX · 18/01/2020 21:08

Sapphos
Prince Andrew, Donald Trump, Epstein, far right blah blah blah. It's like full house on Guardian bingo. Tedious

Datun · 18/01/2020 21:23

Excellent thread. Very informative.

Justhadathought · 18/01/2020 22:05

As far as I'm concerned the old, predictable left-right polarity has now broken down, irretrievably, for most free thinking people. Life is far more complex and nuanced than can be squeezed into pre-fabricated forms.
Those of us who have moved from identifying as being on 'the left' to a position where we now no longer have anyone we can vote for indicates that times are changing.

So bored of the predicable 'bigot', 'phobe', and so on..... accusations from those who can't think for themselves and who identify 'primarily' as part of some tribe. Things get far more interesting when you break out of the box. I can like and agree with some of the views expressed by people from a whole range of backgrounds and positions...

LangCleg · 18/01/2020 22:24

Those of us who have moved from identifying as being on 'the left' to a position where we now no longer have anyone we can vote for indicates that times are changing.

Political vacuums are dangerous but they will be filled. There's always a crisis when we move from one political era to the next - and "the left" needs to get its materialist boots on fast otherwise it will be the main casualty.

And if you need authoritarianism, witch hunting, censorship and denunciation to impose your version of "liberalism" - well, liberal, it ain't.

Creepster · 18/01/2020 22:53

It appears to have gone from the liberal vs conservative economic dispute to the Libertarian vs authoritarian dispute.
Somehow it always ends up with men arguing over how to position the boot on women's neck.

Needmoresleep · 18/01/2020 22:53

Lang, identity politics and culture wars seem to be creating all sorts of new divisions. And impacts, like 'blue labour', Boris's storming of the red wall and probably Trumps reelection in the US.

Why are previously Labour/Democrat voters voting for Boris and Trump. They will not have changed. The change has been in their ability to trust left wing politicians.

Why? Are they decent people simply sick of 'woke' or are people, including a few posters up thread, right in suggesting it is because their closet racism/transphobia/whatever is showing.

Douglas Murray has addressed this and inspired a rather good discussion on the board. Trevor Philips, the former Commissioner for Racial Equality had a go in the Mail today, though unfortunately a rather rambling article addressing Meghan and the allegations of racism and comparing to the tensions around Brexit.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7900563/amp/Just-Britain-healing-new-cultural-war-raging-Megxit-insists-TREVOR-PHILLIPS.html

Someone cleverer than me will have the language and clarity. However I am confident that my own GC views are not based on being left wing or right wing, race, religion, phobia or hate. Live and let live, but protect our children, protect vulnerable people, and allow my voice to be heard and my rights to be equal to those of others.

And if other posters choose to accuse me, in the way they accuse Posie, Caro, Julie and others. Well they are wrong...and rude.

Clymene · 18/01/2020 23:28

What the transgender movement has brought into very sharp focus is that misogyny is endemic. It has no respect for class, colour, creed or politics. Men just don't see women as equals as a class.

I honestly had no idea quite how little respect t they had for us until the GRA consultation. It's been quite the eye opener.

Stellwagen · 19/01/2020 01:02

All this back and forth about whether Posie said trans people should be sterilized is so tedious. She hasn't actually sterilized anyone has she?

You know who has? Medical professionals who are prescribing cross sex hormones to children and young adults. So which is the worst crime? Saying someone should be sterilized or actually fucking doing it?

Cookieflavoredbiscuit · 19/01/2020 01:56

The Fat Controller makes a very important point - for many women being gender critical is not about feminism but about protecting children from harm. These feminists presuming that others are just 'bad' at doing feminism is entirely missing the point. Many women aren't motivated in this way

This. I guess if we had an "ism," (let's say "kidism") for those gender critics motivated by wanting to protect kids from things like school induced gender confusion, medical intervention, loss of privacy, exposure to "queering," enforced gender roles, etc. it could, unlike "feminism" uncontroversially include men.

But we (I'd consider myself a "kidist") would still be accusing each other of doing "kidism" wrong.

As far as I'm concerned the old, predictable left-right polarity has now broken down

I think so too, though I would say breaking down, better late than never. At the same time, I see increased partisianship on both sides, it looks like some are clinging to the polarity, and are becoming more depressingly predictable than ever.

IdaBWells · 19/01/2020 03:39

I still say I have been following Posie in various ways online and off and seen her challenge some very scary ideology for women constantly and intelligently. She has actually done it, put herself in the firing line and raised money to make things happen. Not just bitched on Mumsnet. Whatever her short comings she is actually showing up for women!!

I now understand why she says she is not a feminist because of this thinking and behavior. Never mind that she was a member of the Labour Party and has never voted Tory. This issue matters to everyone though, it’s much bigger than party.

And comparing her to Trump, Prince Andrew and Epstein?!? That’s exactly the same behavior isn’t it?

It’s this nonsense that is preventing Labour getting elected. Attacking the people that get things accomplished and are taking all the heat for not fitting in a predetermined box. Maybe it’s because she doesn’t fit stereotypes that she is successful and reaches so many people, women and men? I refuse to stop admiring her and supporting her.

Justhadathought · 19/01/2020 09:55

And if you need authoritarianism, witch hunting, censorship and denunciation to impose your version of "liberalism" - well, liberal, it ain't

The whole concept we now have of 'liberal-left' has been lifted straight out of an American narrative, as far as I can see. What we might term 'left' is termed 'liberal' in the U.S...but the U.S tradition doesn't have the same class based/materialist analysis that the left does in Europe.

That's how it seems to me, anyway. the left has become all about individualism and liberalism U.S style. Even before any post Brexit trade deals, we've been colonised.

Justhadathought · 19/01/2020 10:08

What the transgender movement has brought into very sharp focus is that misogyny is endemic. It has no respect for class, colour, creed or politics. Men just don't see women as equals as a class

As I see it, people are so befuddled by right and wrong think, and being seen to be politically correct, that the radical TRA movement has been able to sail in under the radar.....free from question or scrutiny. Many people don't know what to think, so they just choose to think or support the 'correct' thing.

That the Beaumont Society, which used to be an organisation founded for cross dressing men and their long suffering wives, is now a fully fledged transgender organisation; and that the concept of what being transgender is, and means, has been so stretched that it now includes a whole raft of quite diverse people - is lost on the general public.......They've no idea.

My feeling is that the whole TRA movement is being manipulated by a certain demographic within that community - those, usually male, with social power, authority and wherewithal - for their own ends; even if it means that vulnerable young women & children get caught up in the net, at substantial cost to themselves.

That and the power of the big American pharmaceuticals looking for new markets. And, of course, the popularity on American university campuses for imposing queer theory onto absolutely everything...so that students are being led to have to read even Shakespeare through a post-modernist/queer lens.......

LangCleg · 19/01/2020 10:13

The whole concept we now have of 'liberal-left' has been lifted straight out of an American narrative, as far as I can see. What we might term 'left' is termed 'liberal' in the U.S...but the U.S tradition doesn't have the same class based/materialist analysis that the left does in Europe.

That's how it seems to me, anyway. the left has become all about individualism and liberalism U.S style. Even before any post Brexit trade deals, we've been colonised.

I concur.

BeyondFlubeInclusionaryRF · 19/01/2020 11:11

Oo interesting - we're back to America colonising the www! That's not sarcasm btw, I genuinely like to read about it.

Also an aside, but can I just say how funny it is to read the sentence "The Fat Controller makes a very important point" Grin

BovaryX · 19/01/2020 11:23

I agree with Lang and needmore, there has been a paradigm shift, the political landscape has changed. Like Generals fighting the last war, many politicos haven't realized this yet. The critical issue is the conflict between the fanatical authoritarianism on the left. And everyone else.

It's interesting how many posters on here say they used to be left wing. Those posters haven't changed. They have been abandoned. The identity politics idiocy which has colonised the illiberal liberal establishment will continue to cause Labour to shed voters like a desert cat sheds its fur in summer. And the usual ad hominems and the sloppy shrieking of 'far right' when anyone mentions an inconvenient fact? That doesn't work. Anymore.