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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

M&S + John Lewis - your poor Christmas sales will be due to the contempt you've shown your female customers

482 replies

Sunkisses · 10/01/2020 10:26

It's all over the news that M&S and John Lewis have had terrible Christmas sales. I am absolutely sure this is due to the terrible press coverage they received and viral threads of Twitter about how they allow men into the female changing rooms, the contempt they treated their female customers with when we voiced our complaints, and the 1,000s of us who pledged not to shop with them over Christmas. I stuck by my pledge over Christmas and they lost about £1,000 of custom from me with gifts and food. Anyone else kept up their boycott?

OP posts:
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HorseWithNoTimeForThis · 15/01/2020 20:42

Yes top post michelle

SunsetBeetch · 15/01/2020 21:19

Yes Kittens it was the same person.

M&S + John Lewis - your poor Christmas sales will be due to the contempt you've shown your female customers
74NewStreet · 15/01/2020 21:24

Achievement unlocked. Sweet Jesus...

Justhadathought · 15/01/2020 21:29

My daughter used to work at Aldi, and the reasons they can keep their prices so low is because they exploit their staff. They may be paid a little higher than the average, but they are expected to do everything - including unloading lorries; warehouse work, shelf stacking, and they have quotas for the number of customers they are supposed to get through the tills in certain time limits.

TheChampagneGalop · 15/01/2020 21:34

Achievement unlocked

Someone has played too many video games, and is now waving a sword around in public to scare off women instead of orcs.

Justhadathought · 15/01/2020 21:50

I haven’t spent one single solitary penny in M&S since they showed their utter contempt for women. Hope they go under

It might benefit your feelings of integrity - but all high street stores will follow common or accepted practice.......the battle is elsewhere for me. I, personally, wouldn't like to see M& S and John Lewis and their many loyal staff and go under at all.......I've bought clothing at both over the the recent period.....and food, too. All high street stores have the same policy - as much as I disagree with it.

I buy local and independent as much as possible anyway......and don't do much on-line shopping......I'll continue to use John Lewis as I can get most household things I need there and at a reasonable price.

The John Lewis trans policy has been in place for many years - I discovered fairly recently, and I've yet to be confronted with men in the changing rooms ( although I appreciate other women might have); with the exception of last week...when a rather feminine, young, Arabic man ( maybe who identified as trans, I don't know) was offering his mother his opinion on her outfit outside of a cubicle a couple of rows down to mine.

Tubbytwo · 15/01/2020 22:07

I’ve reported a tanga brief review by a male on the M&S website and, depending on the reply I receive, will be boycotting their stores (and so will my husband, parents and my adult daughter) and also changing my bank account from M&S).

I feel ill when I think about the world that my daughter, and any children she might have, are set to inherit. I never thought I’d live in a country that was so unsafe for women and girls, much less that it would be my own country 😟

74NewStreet · 15/01/2020 22:12

There was a discussion about that on another thread, Tubbytwo, and some numpty took issue with me as “some men like to wear them” and why shouldn’t they benefit from knowing how comfortable other men thought they were?
As far as I can tell the poster defending this shit is female 🤷🏻‍♀️

Tubbytwo · 15/01/2020 22:21

How incredibly sad that there are women who’ve been taken in by these lies which seem to increase in number every day.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 15/01/2020 23:25

How incredibly sad that there are women who’ve been taken in by these lies which seem to increase in number every day.

That people can change sex? Yes, I agree, it’s a horrible lie to tell.

Dangerfloof · 16/01/2020 05:16

The John Lewis trans policy has been in place for many years
But this isnt about the trans policy. M and s have explicitly said you can go to the changing room you feel most comfortable in.
How many men men/actual men with a desire to mingle with women for any reason whatsoever will take them up on this offer.
I would be ok with this (still never use them again) if they advertised this as far and loud as that stupid Christmas jumper advert. If they truly believe that no harm will come to women ever then they damn well should stand by that and be much more open about it.
They dont really believe though, and they are hoping only a few women are assaulted before they can switch back to women and transwomen only. Whereupon I still wont use them.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 16/01/2020 07:34

if they advertised this as far and loud as that stupid Christmas jumper advert.

Yes, why don't they own it? If the fitting rooms that happened to be in the bras and/or womenswear sections had signs saying "mixed sex fitting rooms" big and clear, it'd be less of an issue. Everyone would be in on it.

The fact they know its upsetting and a bit dodgy, so they're doing it on the sly (in fact barely even telling store staff); AND ignoring/implicitly slurring all the people asking for justification by email etc - that's what's really makes this smell bad.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/01/2020 08:08

"Women and Wankers" would be more honest, though admittedly a bit challenging in terms of getting it past the marketing team.

Crissy83 · 16/01/2020 08:12

Very tough retail market, particularly on the High St where these two heavily rely. Uninspiring ranges.

Tubbytwo · 16/01/2020 09:00

So M&S decides that making changing rooms unsafe for women and girls will help? Maybe they are planning to sell their dreary clothes to another target market in future? Given their boring ranges I doubt they’ll have much success unless they start adding frills, glitter and general sparkly tat 🤭

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/01/2020 09:01

Maybe they plan to be lingerie and food only. I can't imagine anyone wanting to have a wank over their awkwardly fitted jumpers.

TirisfalPumpkin · 16/01/2020 09:27

Worth mentioning that the purpose of a boycott is rarely to force the offending brand out of business. It’s a negotiation, with our power being our £. M&S, JL et al can accept our suggestion and win at least some of the lost business back, or not - in which case they’re going to have to find that income from somewhere else. Selling £35 acrylic granny cardis to the blue hairs sounds like a solid plan for sure.

SeaWitchly · 16/01/2020 10:51

I am still boycotting Flora as well 😁

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 16/01/2020 11:01

With the personal boycotts (that are somehow simultaneously having no effect whatsoever AND putting the employees on the street...)

It's very easy really. It's not like I am now handwringedly bereft of choice.

  • I want knickers? OK, I'll get them from Sainsbury's instead, no bother.
  • Christmas hampers for work suppliers? Hotel Chocolat do nice options, easy.
  • Something to put on my toast? A veritable smorgasbord of options aside from Flora
  • Birthday smellies for Mum? Nice little independent came up trumps so I could avoid suffocating myself in Lush.

I'm not going out of my way to be an angry harridan, I'm just going to an easily found, easily shoppable alternative who actively does want the custom of an Adult Human Female. Win:win.

YourOpinionIsNoted · 16/01/2020 11:21

I'm not going out of my way to be an angry harridan, I'm just going to an easily found, easily shoppable alternative who actively does want the custom of an Adult Human Female. Win:win.

Ditto.

Same with the general election. Lib Dems TOLD me not to vote for them. So I didn't.

Wokescolds can scream "you must think what we think, or you're a bigot who can fuck off" at me all day long, but they can't make me spend my money (or my vote), and they can't make me change my mind. I'll just go elsewhere.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 16/01/2020 11:29

you must think what we think, or you're a bigot who can fuck off

And so you fucked off and they lost your interest vote and custom. By the looks of it many others have done the same.

FleetsumNJetsum · 16/01/2020 11:29

There was a discussion about that on another thread, Tubbytwo, and some numpty took issue with me as “some men like to wear them” and why shouldn’t they benefit from knowing how comfortable other men thought they were?
As far as I can tell the poster defending this shit is female

Ok. About the men in knickers discussion. I think that people should be allowed to wear what they like, including men wearing women's knickers if they choose. I mean, who wants to be the clothes police? I feel that men can buy knickers at M&S if they choose, and even try them on there. As long as they are trying them on in the men's changing room. But the problem is that fetishistic lingerie wearers are the ones doing it, not men who simply feel that women's knickers are more comfortable. I mean, come on, am I out of line here? So we are forced to wonder what they will do with the knickers while in the changing rooms (am remembering twitter selfies...) and where they will put the ones they don't purchase. We all know it is a fetish, and I think fetishes are fine, as long as the enjoyment does not involve other people, knowingly or unknowingly, in public places. People who have no interest in participating. Who cringe at the thought of having unknowingly participated. Possibly paid money for wanked-on undies. So what is the answer?

One small yet easily do-able correction would be to change the M&S comments policy online. This has been said on this board before. These men get a thrill, I'm sure, "outing" themselves online on the knickers page, and that is bad enough (bad as in creepy). They also show commraderie and get another thrill through thumbs-upping each other's comments.

An easy part fix would be getting rid of the sex descriptors for the comments. I say part fix because there are ways, surely, that these people could get around that and identify each other in the comments, but that would not be requiring other people to be as "aware" of the fetishistic activity. So, we know it happens, but it is not in plain sight.

M&S could also make women feel less creeped out at the very thought of M&S knickers with something they already do: filter the comments. I read just a few of them but found a number that were clearly rejoicing in pointing out that they (men) had junk that fit comfortably in the knickers. Come on, M&S, we can understand with certainty that there will be fetishistic men commenting, we don't need it rubbed in our faces. Surely these comments can be rejected as inappropriate. And if someone wants to ask "why can't they comment in this way? It is perfectly normal to comment on comfort", just be aware that most people don't require readers to imagine their genitals when reading a comment. I believe (and could be wrong) this is a male thing. A male with a fetish.

And finally, no more thumbs-ups or downs. Why do M&S need them? What is that about, even? Get rid.

I know this does very little to solve the "use the changing room where you feel most comfortable" policy, and the possibility of wanked-on knickers in store, but come on M&S, take some steps to be less creepy!

TimeLady · 16/01/2020 11:34

I doubt they’ll have much success unless they start adding frills, glitter and general sparkly tat

They tried that a few years back. I wondered who they were trying to appeal to at the time, 'cos it certainly wasn't to middle-aged women like me.

It's all starting to make sense now.....Grin They've clearly been an supplier to that minority demographic for years..... Must be the target market for all the nighties with soppy bunnies and crap on too.

C'mon, M&S, show your true colours. Let's have some male mannequins in female clothing in the windows, on the website and throughout the stores. Be out and proud.

Datun · 16/01/2020 11:53

I agree that making men try knickers on in the men's changing room and filtering reviews, would take a lot of the sexual thrill away for fetishists, given that the violation of boundaries is key to a lot of it.

And it wouldn't prevent men with genuine gender dysphoria from purchasing the clothes.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/01/2020 11:59

All this does rather make me wonder just how big a market men with a fetish for knickers is. M&S better hope it's big enough to replace all the women buying knickers for practical reasons who're now buying them somewhere else.