Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

Men 'get' this. But very few of them give a fuck, because women being frightened suits them just fine.

My DP always reverts back to ‘men can be in DV relationship too’ and ‘women can be violent to women’s too’ he doesn’t seam to grasp that a much higher percentage of women feel threatened by men.

You do not have a compassionate son

I read this a while ago and it fairly accurately sums up how I feel.

“ I keep moving. I am always moving. I take the stairs, not the lift, never stand on the escalators if on my own, but walk up them instead. I don’t pause to look in shop windows, or watch buskers or the cup-and-ball conmen; I walk on, quickly, with purpose – because I like to get where I am going, yes, but also because I know it’s harder to hit a moving target. If you dart past the rest of the world, allow yourself to be a blur, you’re less likely to be noticed, to attract their attention, get them to question whether there’s something different about you that they either desire, fear, or feel powerful enough to exploit. Experience has taught me perpetual motion is my greatest protection.”

Many men who are BAME and/or gay most certainly don’t feel safe when out an about. But it doesn’t mean a man knows how a woman feels, just as a woman doesn’t know how a man feels. They’re both unsafe, but largely for different reasons.

I don’t think I have ever met anyone who wouldn’t be scared by someone punching holes in walls or smashing chairs. Surely only another violent person would find that sort of behaviour normal?

I think it’s difficult for men to truly get it. I’ve told my dh some stuff and his eyes were as wide as saucers as it doesn’t affect him and these things never touched his radar. I think a lot of men are brought up and given signals in society that females are inferior. It’s ingrained, learnt bias, which they wouldn’t even question because it’s so insidious. Then when they’re challenged on it, these all so compassionate men go NAMALT and get upset and defensive rather than actually listen. It’s the same with any marginalised group. The stronger section gets outraged and presume they know better than the affected group.

I don't think it's fundamentally and difference between men and women. Some people are empathetic and others are not.

It seems to be difficult for them. I think quite a lot of men feel under threat physically in fact, realistically they are right to feel under threat as far more men than women are injured and killed by violent crime. But they absolutely don't seem to get exactly how much weaker women are physically. In a way, it's good that the mental cultural image of women is now strong and capable, I think it's a good thing. But it did strike me when I started meeting strangers for sex, obviously risky behaviour, I was upfront about a few of the safety measures I tried to take and several men got huffy and suggested they were at just as much risk as I was. Absolutely ludicrous as women attacking/murdering male sexual partners is funnily enough not anything like as common the other way round.

It’s much harder to understand a situation fully, if you haven’t lived it yourself.

I’m fortunate to have only ever had very safe and placid men in my life. I’ve never found myself in a situation where I’ve been scared because of a man.

That doesn’t mean that I don’t realise, or feel saddened or angry about, the plight of millions of other women in the world; but I don’t spend my days living in fear. Therefore, I guess to some extent, I don’t always consider that my contemporaries might be experiencing fear or negative emotions in certain situations.

I must admit, I’ve read some things on these threads that it had never occurred to me to be bothered, or worried, about. But then I read things like this to try and understand other people’s viewpoints.

I know a couple of men who truly get this - one my husband and the other a very good friend.

But most will revert to "women hit men too" pretty quickly.

“ I keep moving. I am always moving. I take the stairs, not the lift, never stand on the escalators if on my own, but walk up them instead. I don’t pause to look in shop windows, or watch buskers or the cup-and-ball conmen; I walk on, quickly, with purpose – because I like to get where I am going, yes, but also because I know it’s harder to hit a moving target. If you dart past the rest of the world, allow yourself to be a blur, you’re less likely to be noticed, to attract their attention, get them to question whether there’s something different about you that they either desire, fear, or feel powerful enough to exploit. Experience has taught me perpetual motion is my greatest protection.”

Who was this written by and what was the context? Why is the person so scared?

I would assume this has been written by someone who has suffered a particular trauma, rather than the normal, everyday experience of a woman in the UK?

It’a from the guyliner. It’s from a man, but from a vulnerable group.

I read a very interesting piece a while ago by a woman who now tries to walk home alone etc and documents her feelings throughout her journeys. She also had the added difficulty of being BAME. I’m going to have a google to see if I can find it, it would be good to show to others.

theguyliner.com/gay-stuff/saturday/

Men have no interest in understanding. Like a pp said, it suits them just fine to maintain the status quo.

Simon
Yes, that would be great, thanks.

I had a male friend (& he was just a friend), with whom I would go walking in the countryside. He knew lots of lovely places, some open, some woodland areas and forests, near streams and we walked miles and miles. We saw very few people.

My friend also walked on his own and couldn't understand why I was too afraid to do so as he saw me as a confident person. However there is no way that I would walk alone in a remote place for fear of being followed and attacked.

He really didn't understand and he was quite a compassionate person in other respects.

I agree with the op.

Do most men really understand what it's like (from as far back as I can remember) to go out with one eye over your shoulder, scanning your environment for danger? Contemplating lifts, walking across dark car parks, standing at a bus stop..

When a man walks behind me I either move or let him pass. I'm always aware he's there. Even in a busy public environment, such as a bar or a gig, that man may feel entitled to put his hands round my waist or rub up against me as he goes past.

When I'm out with my husband it's evident he doesn't do those safety checks - it doesn't even enter his psyche.

Michael Conroy? (Man in a Box) put a Twitter post up a year or so ago asking women what they would do if there was a 'curfew' for all males one day a year.

The most common answer was "go walking alone" (with additions such as 'after dark' 'in the woods' etc). Some of the decent men on Twitter admitted they were surprpised and saddened by this answer and hadn't realised it was so overwhelmingly popular among women.

I'd like to add toilets to that list please. Because despite this ignorant insistance that women should share these spaces with men, I'm always cautious in those confined spaces.

Especially those at the end of corridors away from the main area. Sometimes you might go in and they're dark, eerily silent with a number of cubicles. It makes me tense to wonder who else be in there too and I try to stay close to the exit in case.

That recent article on the 'touch sensitive' dress worn by two women in a night club might be an eye opener.

Why would they?
Like others have said, unless you experience something yourselves, you never really get it.
Also like others, I'm lucky enough to not have experienced it. I walk by myself in remote woodland, often bump into men who are strangers and never feel afraid, so do I really get it either? Probably not.
And a lot of men do feel threatened too (by other men) - so maybe those men get it somewhat. It's not uncommon for men to be threatened or intimidated by complete strangers while out and about.

I think many men get it, but some of those who get it resent what it says about men as a group, so they pretend not to get it. "Men get (whatever) too" has never read as an honest response to me, more as "talking about this is making me uncomfortable so I'm going to say whatever I have to to get you to shut up".

I hate to Not My Nigel, but I didn't have to explain why women need separate spaces and what that means in relation to the TRA stuff to my DH, and pointing out that the majority of males accessing women's spaces would be heterosexual sent him from "this is not OK" to "how the fuck is that even allowed?" immediately. So men get the way in which the threat is tied into male sexual behavior too. The ones who say they don't are lying, imo.

I think most children get it, as they're vulnerable to adults. My observation is that boys seem to lose this in adolescence and I wonder if there's an evolutionary aspect at play. Most 'coming of age' ceremonies seem to involve some aspect of overcoming great fear. And a lot of teenage boys, in particular, seem to go through a phase of almost recklessness invulnerability. So I've wondered if it's evolutionarily necessary to lose that fear to become a man. If someone has to face the sabre tooth tiger etc. I've had some success talking from this perspective in getting men to understand because most of them can remember how it felt to be a child.

I passed a group of teen boys at a bus stop - big, man-sized, strong and energetic, but still children really, play fighting, laughing and shoving each other around.

Women, kids and older people shrinking away to avoid one of them thudding into them, while the boys were oblivious to anyone else's fear of getting hurt.

I think this lack of understanding and empathy starts young. I wonder if as men become elderly, lose power and strength, they too begin to 'get it'?

Of course, adolescence does involve a surge of testosterone and all its effects. It does dwindle as men age.

No I don't think they do and I don't think they ever can - because they will always of the 2 sexes be taller, stronger, faster and less vulnerable.

The one man I feel comes CLOSE to getting it is my brother for 2 reasons:

1 He grew up in a violent household (abusive alcoholic father) and knows how it felt to be the smaller, weaker, slower person in that dynamic

2 he is now a police officer and so has very often - too often he would even say because it would be great for everyone if he had to deal with this less often - been the first responder to incidents of dv, assault, rape and murder. He now works in an area which means he's less likely to deal with this stuff but he occasionally still has to depending on circumstances. So he's seen what many men don't - the immediate aftermath of such events.

He's even half "joked" at times prior to the sm item aforementioned that really it actually would make sense to put a curfew on men - says it would likely mean a lot less work for his sector! Not none because that would do nothing re dv but it would cut out a lot of other stuff.

But it's because they don't live it and never will.

It's like I will never "get" how it feels to be non white woman who are even more vulnerable. I can sympathise and feel outrage, sadness and anger on their behalf that it's the case that they feel even more at risk than I do but I can never truly understand how it feels.

All we can do is keep telling them, keep on at the politicians and lawmakers to change things (and yes I know that feels particularly unlikely at the moment!)

We need better investigation and prosecution rates, better training of police officers, dispelling of rape myths, dismantling of rape culture, much stiffer sentencing for violence against women and children - bug the life out of your Mp on these matters - I do!

Sign petitions do whatever you can to effect change.

I think a lot of men hold this weird tension, where they both get it and don't.

By that I mean that I will often get a blank stare if I talk about how my reaction might be different to a male friend if I am alone at night and see a man walking towards me. The male friend will have to deliberately put himself in a different mindset to 'get it'.

But if I talk to men about male bodied individuals who are very eager to use female facilities, very often their reaction is wide eyed "WTF?" because they know full bloody well that's a red flag. You'll also see it when men are talking to their daughters about what to watch out for on a date. They know exactly what men are capable of.

Some of this is related to the 'protect women who belong to me' attitude - the threat is acknowledged because the man is already invested.

But you do see self identified lefty men who are asked that question about seeing an obvious male following their wife/daughter into a confined space making a big show about "I would be insulting my strong wife/daughter if I thought they needed protection." I strongly suspect this is very much a deliberate suppression of the instinct to acknowledge a dangerous situation. I think it's mostly said for the effect of seeming righteous, but they might also do it.

I find it fascinating that men who consider themselves progressive, many of whom might even call themselves feminists, have taken a line which not only still doesn't acknowledge the implicit threats involved in just being a woman in the world, but think it's a mark of a feminist man to also believe that they should offer no protection to women when they can see a threat in front of them.

Tbh, it's why I would trust an openly right wing conservative over a lefty dudebro any day of the week. I don't think there is misogyny quite so unpleasant as treacherous misogyny.

I suspect a lot of those lefty dudebros, the older ones at least, would quietly take steps to protect the few women and girls whose wellbeing they care about while pretending no such steps are needed, Floral. There's a very strong sense of only certain women are provisionally worthy of basic human dignity with men like that.