Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

I think they get it to a certain extent. Dh runs and is very aware of how his presence may worry women. Does he think about walking late at night in the way I would do, no.

I agree. I’d far rather take my chances around Johnson than Corbyn cronies.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard

At 19 he's not really grown up and experienced much of life....not really a man, yet. Although obviously disappointing if your own son. I have two sons in their late twenties and I think they are now beginning to see and 'get it' - due to the experiences of their female friends.
I think many/most men do 'get it', and that is also why many men see the inherent issue with male bodied people playing in women's sports.

To add to the above - young women these days act on a 'supposed' stage of equality - well certainly educated, more privileged girls......and it is not until later that the real issues of sexism and difference begin to show their heads.

My DP always reverts back to ‘men can be in DV relationship too’ and ‘women can be violent to women’s too’ he doesn’t seam to grasp that a much higher percentage of women feel threatened by men

That is the 'atmosphere and the mood music that many younger people operate in these days......" We're all just equal pals...or else just 'friends with benefits' ".....before the real structural issues kick in.......before real adult life with its responsibilities and burdens kicks in.

I think a lot of men hold this weird tension, where they both get it and don't

I think you're right! They do get it because they have close relationships with women and are exposed to their stories and experiences; but they also don't get it at an instinctive level because they have not grown up with the same codes and rules, and expectations.

I dont think its as simple as men v women. I'm a woman and it isn't my reality of safety. I hike alone, camp alone, walk home in the dark, share youth hostel rooms with unknown men etc. At 50 I've had the odd unwanted attention but nothing that wasnt easily rejected. So i dont experience fear doing these things. I understand rationally that some womens experiences are different and this leads them to behave differently but I am aware that i dont really get why some women are so fearful of so much.

Some mens experiences will lead them to feel this fear, others not. Some children have cause to fear all grown ups, others not.

Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars.

I would be insulting my strong wife/daughter if I thought they needed protection." I strongly suspect this is very much a deliberate suppression of the instinct to acknowledge a dangerous situation. I think it's mostly said for the effect of seeming righteous, but they might also do it

Agree again! They suppress their instinctive responses in the name of 'equality' and 'respect' for their female friends and girlfriends. A generation of young men & women who have been brought up on 'equality' but don't yet fully recognise yet the 'deep structure'.

I don’t think I have ever met anyone who wouldn’t be scared by someone punching holes in walls or smashing chairs. Surely only another violent person would find that sort of behaviour normal?

Well yes indeed.

I'm a 60 year old woman, the quote I keep moving. I am always moving. I take the stairs, not the lift, never stand on the escalators if on my own, but walk up them etc, etc doesn't resonate with me at all.

I’ve read many things on these threads that it had never occurred to me to be bothered, or worried, about. If anything since I discovered MN I occasionally get annoyed when doing things I've always done but now being worried that according to received wisdom I should be wary of.

It depends, but I have found that many men don't even understand how concerned we can be at simple things like solo travel overseas, sitting in a bar alone etc - late night trains being my personal hate and I'm not small or young (I try to have my dog with me as he's got an excellent snarl if someone approaches

I think a lot of men don't really get it no, not in my experience. I have had to explain where women would avoid walking, how the sound of quickening footsteps approaching from behind us can make us feel, how it is not unusual for women to place their keys splayed out between their fingers in case we need to defend ourselves, how going on self defence courses feels like essential knowledge in order to keep us safe and how we scan and read body language and facial gesture as men walk towards us

I dont think its as simple as men v women. I'm a woman and it isn't my reality of safety. I hike alone, camp alone, walk home in the dark, share youth hostel rooms with unknown men etc. At 50 I've had the odd unwanted attention but nothing that wasnt easily rejected. So i dont experience fear doing these things

I've done all of the above too....and have never experienced rape or violent sexual assault ( but did have to jump out of HGVs while hitching in France; get chased through woods in the south of France; get 'taken advantage of' by an older man when naive at 16 and so on.....). I

had a loving, nurturing father and have never been in a relationship with an obviously abusive man.....however, I absolutely do/did recognise my vulnerabilities.....certainly on a physical level......

I reckon under your confident exterior, like me, there is a necessary and instinctive fear/threat response....Maybe you don't acknowledge it?

No. Men will never, ever understand the fear that is with us 24/7. There was another thread about online dating on MN where a guy was telling women not to be so suspicious of every guy that contacts them and I wanted to ream him out. He has no fcking clue how scary it is meeting a guy for the first time.
Women have to constantly monitor their environment for threats- going on a date you are constantly looking for clues he might not respect the word no, walking home at night you have to weigh up the risks of that, entering a car park late at night to collect your car can be bloody terrifying. Men dont get that because largely, men dont worry about their personal safety unless they are in very specific situations (eg confronted by someone with a knife etc).
Men dont have constant wolf whistles or unsolicited comments made about their bodies, they dont have to struggle to let women down "politely" for fear of them kicking off in a rage and getting violent. They dont have the knowledge that most women could overpower them no matter how fit and strong they keep themselves.

As Gavin De Becker says in his book the gift of fear: "mens worst fear is that women will laugh at them. Women's worst fear is that men will kill them".
Until you are living with that fear at the back of your mind, you will never "get it" no matter how understanding you try to be. Its like me trying to fully "get" what its like to experience causal racism on a daily basis- I can empathise but how can I fully understand what it feels like when I am white?

Men will never, ever understand the fear that is with us 24/7

Neither do I. I am not in fear 24/7.

Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars

I think that physical risk and threat is a constant in our lives; for all of us - male and female......however for women it also has a certain quality - of sexual threat too......At some basic level women always sense physical threat when alone around men.They may not be conscious of it, or acknowledge it, though - but is is there.

That is why women's spaces are important. Any space in which women are undressed or particularly physically vulnerable needs to be single sex for safety, comfort & dignity. Even when I used to go to the gym - I'd go to women only sessions....and I'm a strong, confident, outspoken woman.

Neither do I. I am not in fear 24/7

I'm not actively in fear at work or at home, but yes, it is always at the back of my mind when I am out and about and when it gets dark and I have to get home.

I have also had men attempt to rape me before so yes, of course I fear it happening again- wouldn't you?

I'm not actively in fear at work or at home, but yes, it is always at the back of my mind when I am out and about and when it gets dark and I have to get home

No, this is not in the back of my mind.

I'm not in fear 24/7 either. But I can understand how, due to their experiences, some women might be.

But I am cautious about some things like parking in a dark car park, walking in an isolated area etc. And my husband is very understanding of a lot of things but he gets frustrated that I always always lock the doors whilst I am in the house. He nips out to the shop and then when he comes back ten minutes later finds I have locked him out. He is baffled by it. He said to me recently 'but no one would see us inside and decide to come in' and the penny only dropped for him when I said 'no, seeing you would probably stop someone coming in. Seeing me and two children would be unlikely to deter a potential intruder in the same way'. It was like a lightbulb suddenly came on above his head.

I'm not in fear 24/7 either. But I can understand how, due to their experiences, some women might be

Exactly- but it seems other people are struggling to grasp this

I think while the mindset that all men do know and want us that way because it suits them exists we aren't going to ever make any head way.

If we want reasonable, compassion we have to try and temper our wrath and disdain - I'm not saying be quiet and know our place before anyone starts .. however if you treat all men as though they're knowing and gleeful perpetrators of violence or fear monger OMG amongst women you're only going To alienate those that would make effort to understand.

I think we could all start with the men in our lives and have a calm, reflective conversation about the differences between their nights out vs yours .. take those you can, out into town towards the end of a night and soberly watch the exchanges between vulnerable women and men on the prowl for an easy 'night'. Show them one of the many videos made my feminist groups that reverse the male female role ( there's a few on YouTube ) they're quite difficult to watch but very thought provoking..

Personally I think the largest obstacle is that they simply aren't able to empathise and that won't change and isn't about them being arseholes but because the current state of affairs mean they've never had to carry their keys in their hands to feel the walk home is somewhat more safe, or set up an emergency rescue plan for first dates etc .. it's very easy and largely justified to be angry with them for that inequality but it isn't going to solve anything being angry.

Patient, measured and persistent education will be so much more beneficial and will weed out those that are gleefully revelling in the misery of women's fear.

It's pointless being angry with OPs son for not being able to grasp the fear of women around his gender in a generalised way, it serves many points to present the reasons To him in a way he might be able To grasp x

*fear mongering - damn autocorrect

Exactly- but it seems other people are struggling to grasp this

Yes I am. This constant living in fear bears no resemblance to my life.

“Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars.” Care to provide stats on that?

I’ve been in 2 car accidents my whole life but I’ve been harassed and sexually assaulted too many times for me to count inc very many times in situations/places where I should have been safe eg school, on public transport in the daytime...

Dd is almost 19 and has never been in a car accident but has been harassed and assaulted on numerous occasions too.

Also take into account people, WOMEN are far less likely to report officially a sexual assault than they are a car accident!

I'm willing to bet the huge vast majority of "minor" sexual assaults - groping, ass grabbing, cornering etc go unreported because we KNOW the police would do sod all about it! Partly lack of resources yes but also partly because that is a very patriarchal organisation that STILL mostly fails to recognise the issues for girls and women - evidenced by the many supposed "women's safety" campaigns that are merely perpetuating rape myths!

I'm not living in fear, and I'm very grateful that I've been lucky, and understand and have, I hope, compassion for those who've faced worse than I. However, I DO assess every situation, instinctively and pretty much constantly. I'm vigilant and alert in a way my husband isn't. I'm not afraid, but I am exhausted by the end of the day from being primed the whole time. I wonder how men and women's daily cortisol levels compare?

However, I DO assess every situation, instinctively and pretty much constantly. I'm vigilant and alert in a way my husband isn't

This is exactly what I mean- but you put it better!