Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

481 replies

Ritascornershop · 02/01/2020 06:03

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

OP posts:
DrMorbius · 02/01/2020 11:04

I think a lot of men hold this weird tension, where they both get it and don't

I think you're right! They do get it because they have close relationships with women and are exposed to their stories and experiences; but they also don't get it at an instinctive level because they have not grown up with the same codes and rules, and expectations

This is exactly my situation. I am male, grew up in the 70's with only brothers and a very much traditional SAHM. I have always been involved in sport, including combat sports. Other men and situations never worry me.
It was through getting married, having DD's and growing up in general and joing MN that I have been able to experience things from a female perspective. I don't instinctively do things, I still have to also assess each situation. But in my case it's not for personal safety, but for the safety and well being of women.

AutumnRose1 · 02/01/2020 11:05

OP he is not compassionate if he doesn’t get such basic stuff

beautifulstranger101 · 02/01/2020 11:07

The reasons I feel unsafe walking alone at night and in situations where men could potentially become aggressive have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with having no father (I did have a father- a good one), I didnt grow up in a single parent home, I dont have mental health issues and I dont have a "nervous disposition".

The sole and only reason I feel fear is due to my experiences of being groped, shouted/catcalled, manhandled, and forced into situations that I actively did not want by predatory men. On three separate occasions I have had men try to force themselves on me sexually in attempted rape scenarios, I have been sexually harassed at work, I was almost abducted as a kid by a creepy man who used to hang around our neighbourhood trying to entice kids into his car.

The idea that my fear is due to my parents or whatever is utter bollocks. My fear comes from my lived experiences as a woman where I have been made to feel fear for my personal safety from men. Thats it.
I am not going to take responsibility for that fear, it is a justifiable reaction to the experiences I have had and attempts to blame me for it will not work because I know it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with men's shitty behaviour.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:12

OP he is not compassionate if he doesn’t get such basic stuff

For some people compassion and empathy only comes with direct personal experience.........he's only 19...and has been brought up with 'equality'. No awareness yet of the deep structure......Many young women, likewise.......benefitted from the struggle for women's opportunities and expression......but not cognisant of what lies beneath.

AriadneAufNaxos · 02/01/2020 11:12

HorsWithNoDoeuvres

Please point to the post where I said I don't believe what people are saying

I didn't say you don't believe them. I asked you if you don't believe them

Well? Do you believe them?

Why are you leaping to this bizarre line of thought? Your explanation is disingenuous. There is nothing in what I posted which justifies your interrogation yet you felt the need to post "I. Believe. Woman" Why post that unless you are insinuating I don't?

I'm not going to answer your question because it is a stupid question and wholly irrelevant to what I posted. No doubt you will spin that to your own agenda.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:15

I have been sexually harassed at work, I was almost abducted as a kid by a creepy man who used to hang around our neighbourhood trying to entice kids into his car

I think the vast majority women and girls have had such experiences if they honest with themselves.....I recall several seriously creepy men, at bus stops, on buses, on my way to school back in the 1970's ; men hanging around the all girls school netball court, masturbating and throwing pornography over the fence......taxi drivers shouting sexual obscenities at me as a twelve year old; intimidating comments on the street.....and so on......

beautifulstranger101 · 02/01/2020 11:17

@justhadathought

Totally agree- in discussions with my friends it seems this is depressingly common. Yet still people are telling women they are to blame for being hysterical and overreacting. After experiences like that its hardly shocking people feel wary.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:18

No doubt you will spin that to your own agenda

Ariadne - you were very dismissive in tone in your response......and that is where this particular defensive situation arose....If that is what you mean by 'agenda'? What is your agenda or basic message?

Do you not feel that women generally have any specific physical vulnerabilities out in the world?

Charlienotman · 02/01/2020 11:20

I also don't know why it matters if others are aware. This being frightened is a problem that you have to deal with rationally. It's not for anyone else to change the way they act unless they're being inappropriate.

AutumnRose1 · 02/01/2020 11:21

Op saying he’s only 19, that’s old enough to know how women get harassed etc. I think adolescence is being extended though...

But seriously, when we were teens, boys knew the problem was boys!

I’d be interested to know, if he’s heterosexual, would he date a trans woman?

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:21

Totally agree- in discussions with my friends it seems this is depressingly common

Obviously, some of us are inherently more resilient than others...and learn to move in the world without being blind-sided and frightened all of the time...but that doesn't have to mean that we cannot recognise the inherent vulnerabilities of being female.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:25

This being frightened is a problem that you have to deal with rationally. It's not for anyone else to change the way they act unless they're being inappropriate

If you by any chance might be suggesting that it is for individual women to 'mange their responses' so that male bodied people can access single sex spoces....you are not on.....Single sex spaces exist for good reason. Male bodied people can also manage their anxiety and use the sex appropriate space. And that is what they should do.

Nobody is requesting mixed sex spaces; most women have not got a clue what is being slid in under the radar......it is being enforced by stealth......

Vinorosso74 · 02/01/2020 11:25

I don't know if they can if they have no direct experience. Most men are fine and will not grope/shout lewd comments/hit/ rape etc. However, there seems to be an increase in these behaviours and an increase in victim blaming than from when I was younger. There seems more of a "macho" culture. I don't know exactly but I do worry for my DD growing up around this. I won't use one of our local tube stations later at night due to groups of men hanging around (the other is fine) I don't like having to avoid it to feel safer.
I was cat sitting over Christmas and the last night I did a later visit and asked DP to come with me as I had to walk past a lot of cafes where there are groups of men outside. Again most are fine but others not so.
I have no magic solution to change it but male bravado and behaviour needs to change. It also needs to be understood how it can affect females.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:27

This being frightened is a problem that you have to deal with rationally. It's not for anyone else to change the way they act unless they're being inappropriate

Some issues and fears are structural........in that certain things tend to effect some groups more than others.....solutions should be structural too....and that is why we have single sex spaces in the first place........and why around the world women require certain spaces to be single sex so that they can participate in life and in the world.

AriadneAufNaxos · 02/01/2020 11:27

Ariadne - you were very dismissive in tone in your response......and that is where this particular defensive situation arose....If that is what you mean by 'agenda'? What is your agenda or basic message?

I am dismissive because your posts deserve to be dismissed. I said nothing whatsoever about not believing women yet you posted your sanctimonious "I.Believe.Women" ? Why post that except to insinuate I don't?

I had no "agenda" beyond what I said- this level of fear is alien to my experience.

The only person I can see with an agenda is you- again why post"I . Believe. Women" . Nobody, including me had said they didn't.

charis · 02/01/2020 11:29

I've never been able to find it since, but I have had some success recounting this analogy.

You say, imagine living in a world where there are a whole race of superhumans, bigger, stronger, with most of the power and money and entitlement to your body, attention, using you as entertainment etc Growing up in families with them, working with them, in relationships with them etc

Anyone else come across this?

My physically abusive ex who was a whole foot taller, with twice my reach, refused to even listen, but he would..

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:29

I also don't know why it matters if others are aware

Because we human beings are by nature social....and social relationships ned to be negotiated and managed.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:31

It's not for anyone else to change the way they act unless they're being inappropriate

I think we all need to be conscious of aggressions, micro-aggressions and the structures which often support them, myself.

Charlienotman · 02/01/2020 11:32

No I didn't even consider the ridiculous notion of same sex toilers.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:36

I am dismissive because your posts deserve to be dismissed. I said nothing whatsoever about not believing women yet you posted your sanctimonious "I.Believe.Women" ? Why post that except to insinuate I don't

You've got the wrong person.....I am simply an observer of your interaction with another poster. You could have worded your response in less of an inflammatory way.

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:37

No I didn't even consider the ridiculous notion of same sex toilers

Good! Because I could see that for some this would be the exact same line of reasoning....that women and girls should manage their anxieties even when confronted with males in female spaces.....

Justhadathought · 02/01/2020 11:39

I had no "agenda" beyond what I said- this level of fear is alien to my experience.

Is it really totally alien? Can you not recognise anything at all in what she said?

Charlienotman · 02/01/2020 11:41

I don't think any 'structures'suppirt aggressions. The structures in our society have men and women the most equal they've ever been. Of course there are cases of toxic masculinity and femininity, but these aren't accepted as normal and indeed people should generally be able to counter the occasional 'micro aggression'.

Charlienotman · 02/01/2020 11:45

I do agree with the fact that women should manage their anxieties better. Not least as this is passed on to their children and is not a healthy state of mind to be in where they instinctively fear men for no good reason. It's also very damaging for young men to be viewed this way.

beautifulstranger101 · 02/01/2020 11:47

I do agree with the fact that women should manage their anxieties better. Not least as this is passed on to their children and is not a healthy state of mind to be in where they instinctively fear men for no good reason. It's also very damaging for young men to be viewed this way

And men should manage their behaviour better too- by reinforcing that no means no and talking to their sons about issues like consent, harassment, and educating them on appropriate behaviour.