Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

Women are smaller and weaker than men. Most men are taller and a man of equal size is 13% stronger than the woman.

The vast majority of men are stronger than most women.

For average - smaller women - all men are stronger than them. This is the lived reality. Most violence is perpetrated by men against women. It is a choice. Most men choose not to. Some choose to. Women and girls have to be mindful and be vigilant of those who chose to be violent.

I found a Guardian article related to this fear and it's based on a Danielle Muscado tweet - of all people!

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/08/women-men-curfew-danger-fear

I don't think any 'structures' support aggressions

Personally think that is naive..... Social structures which have arisen out of basic biological differences......such as the potential for pregnancy, childbirth, childcare......and other basic differences between the sexes ( men stronger physically etc) are still there...and always will be.

Women may have 'equality' on paper - but in practice real life intrudes as most of us of a certain age and experience will attest to.There is still a pay gap, for example.....and this comes down to deep structural issues and set-ups and prejudices ( & practices) around women in the work place.....Women's biology and women's many caring social roles cannot be done away with by an act of legislation. Society is complex and so are people and their relationships.

It's also very damaging for young men to be viewed this way

What you said applies here equally to men- men can manage their own anxieties regarding how they are viewed and they should generally be able to counter micro aggressions.

Beautifulstranger101

I'm sorry that you've had some awful experiences, but I'm sure you'll agree that you've been extremely unfortunate to have been victim to so many instances and that it is very very unlikely that it is what most women will ever experience.
While I understand this might have made you wary I still think it may be worthwhile seeking professional help to ease you through what has been traumatising and continues to affect you r daily life to the extent you're so frightened.

This isn't blaming you for what happened. I'm simply stating that your level of fear is not rational behaviour even if it is a rational response to your trauma.

I think in general it's true that teenage boys and men in their 20s are probably less likely to think about issues of safety from women's perspectives, especially if they are of the strong, sporty type and haven't grown up with female siblings or have many female friends. When you're young and healthy it's easy to be self-centred, irrespective of your sex.

Everyone understands overtly aggressive or creepy behaviour, but guys don't always notice the subtle ones or the way many women can be instinctively wary of their surroundings.

Sadly, whether man or woman, a lot of people don't really care about things unless it has some direct effect on them.
So as men get older and might have daughters, then they come to appreciate the importance of women's safety or keeping men out of women's sport.
It's why women can fawn over TWAW and not give a shit about women in prisons, women experiencing DV or sexual assault and needing to use shelters etc because they have not had to undergo such scenarios themselves and so don't see why such matters should concern them. One of their pals is trans and a lovely person and that's all that matters.
It's why people scoff at things like social welfare or nationalised healthcare because they are either rich or healthy so think it's a waste of 'their' time and money. Some people have to actually experience severe or chronic ill health and lose their jobs before they come to appreciate the importance of such things.

So I guess it's a combination of humans in general being uninterested in issues unless it affects them in some way, as well as a sense of obliviousness that comes from being male and not having to worry about where you go and what you do.
There's no real malice or deliberate looking away, imo, but a naive obliviousness, especially if they grow up surrounded by 'men and women are equal' messages.

As mentioned by another poster, minds and hearts can be changed over time when women talk to their male partners and sons. There might be initial resistance or defensive denial because a lot of men feel it reflects on their behaviour in some way or forces them to be introspective about themselves and other men in ways they haven't had to. But good, decent men eventually get it; even if they cannot directly relate to or empathise with the concerns, they can still understand women's fears and worries from an intellectual and human level.

Do agree with the fact that women should manage their anxieties bette

Most women do; we have to - to exist and act in the world. Just as men have to mange their anxieties around other males and in certain types of social space.

But that doesn't take away from the very real fact that men are bigger and stronger, and that women are inherently vulnerable physically and/or sexually.

I have a grown up daughter and now a granddaughter; and also two grown up sons......I am a confident, strong woman who has done my own thing in my life as much as possible- but that doesn't take away from the fact that i have also been physically vulnerable in certain situations, and that i can recognise why women require single sex spaces in certain intimate and vulnerable situations.

i don't want my granddaughter having to be uncomfortable around boys in school toilets because she has her period ( she's just five years old at present), and I want for het to be sporty and athletic ( she already is) and be able to compete on a level playing field with other girls.....when necessary& in the interests of fairness.

My two boys are good men. They can recognise, now, the very specific vulnerabilities of women and respect that. One of my sons has already noticed how it is only the women, on the call-help line he works on, who are subject to perverts and fetishists ringing up and masturbating over the phone for example........

Sex differences are real and have to be handled appropriately.

I'm sure you'll agree that you've been extremely unfortunate to have been victim to so many instances and that it is very very unlikely that it is what most women will ever experience

I dont agree, no. On speaking with other women these experiences are actually very very common. To think any of these are "rare" is unfortunately very naive. Test this theory- ask the women you know if they have ever felt scared alone at night or ever been harassed by a man, or ever felt it was difficult saying no to a guy. I think you'll be surprised at their responses.

Thank you for the advice- I do not need to seek professional help. I am a therapist and have worked in psych for years. I am fully aware of the psychological mechanisms that are at play here.

No women don't just have equality on paper, they have it in LAW .

You've answered for me really. It's the fact that there are innate differences between men and women that affect equality between the two. That's different from simply a bias from the structure supporting one over another.

When all differences are accounted for there is no pay gap. If anything there's a trend to young women being paid more than their male counterparts.

I think men only see the sexual threat men pose to women. Every man will understand why a woman doesn’t feel safe walking home alone at night, but for them it’s a 1 dimential threat, that she might be raped. What they don’t get is the threat we feel because of the disparity in size and strength.

I had a conversation a while ago with a bloke I consider to be very decent. His mask slips occasionally but not in a way that makes me feel threatened. He got really defensive when I pointed out that women are in more danger because they’re smaller and weaker than men, even the men other men consider weak and non threatening. ‘Do you think I’ve never felt threatened by a man’ he asked? Well yes, of course you’ve felt threatened by a man, but you’re 5 feet 9 and have the physical characteristics of a man in his early 30s, so it will be a larger and stronger than average male who makes you feel threatened. I’m a 5 foot 2 woman and have the physicality of a woman, so it’s potentially any male, even elderly males or any male he’d consider weak and unthreatening who in certain circumstances would make me feel threatened.

The vast majority of them just don’t get it, in fact I’ve never met one who does. They think of the penis as the only threat to women and that’s it.

I don't agree that it's common for most woman to have have been victim of attempted rape more than once.

I think it's common for women to get advances from men but most are able to get by without the level of fear that you seem to have built up. Again I'm sorry you have suffered this.

Most violence is perpetrated by men against women.

No, most violence is perpetrated by men against men. Men are the vast majority of victims of violence.

Charlie “ It's also very damaging for young men to be viewed this way.”

To be viewed what way please? As potential rapists? Or as lacking in empathy?

Just as women can deal with their concerns - as I do by being constantly aware and on the move etc - if men are worried about being seen as a potential rapist, they can deal with that concern themselves.

I am a therapist and have worked in psych for years.

Well to be fair then, you will mostly be talking to women who need therapy and it would be common for women who need therapy to have experienced trauma or suffer from anxiety. If you talked to the many many women who are not coming to you for therapy, you’d see a different picture.

If you talked to the many many women who are not coming to you for therapy, you’d see a different picture

I said in my post I asked my friendship group- the many women I have around me in my life.

I'm not referring to women i have seen in a therapeutic situation.

beautiful I find if you talk to women about their experiences, we’ve mostly had problems.

beautiful I find if you talk to women about their experiences, we’ve mostly had problems

Agreed.

* ..*I'm not going to answer your question..

Not to worry, I'll soon get my life back on track. It's come as a blow tho'..

I said in my post I asked my friendship group

No you said “other women” in your post.
Doesn’t matter a friendship group is still not any better than a therapy client group. It’s all anecdotal.

And also if you've had difficulty saying 'no' to guys I'm still unsure as to where the issue lies. A low self confidence could leave you vulnerable to men in situations where you feel you can't say no.

Instilling self confidence in girls and women from an early age would help greatly if this is a wider issue.

I was sexually assaulted on holidays when I was 20. A man broke into the accommodation where I was sleeping (alone), I woke up in pitch darkness to find him on top of me trying to rape me. I fought him off and escaped but afterwards I was deeply traumatised.

I probably should have had counselling but for 2 or 3 years after it happened, I was actually terrified of men. I was scared to walk anywhere alone, if a strange man tried to speak to me I would instantly be suspicious of his motives, a simple compliment would make me feel nauseous. My anxiety was through the roof. I’m ok now but it took me years to get over it. Men will never understand how scared some women can be of them.

Everyone understands overtly aggressive or creepy behaviour, but guys don't always notice the subtle ones or the way many women can be instinctively wary of their surroundings

Absolutely! the subtle things....the creepiness..being used as an unwilling participant in a sexual fantasy and so on....the look of disdain on the street; or the resentment that a woman is in the way on the pavement ( often has a sexed element to it) and so on.......this is part of the soup we exist in...even as we get used to it and begin to see it as normal.....

No, most violence is perpetrated by men against men...

Too many words.

most violence is perpetrated by men.

There, fixed it for you.

*No women don't just have equality on paper, they have it in LAW8

And yet women's rights and spaces now take second place to men identifying ( how insulting) as women. Women are still expecting to budge up and 'be nice'; and have not even been consulted on such changes.

Samira Ahmed has just had to go to court to challenge gender inequality in practice.....even though the law says it is there already. In practice, it isn't.

Autumn rose
I deed men can and do dea l with those issues, I wasn't aware I had said they were struggling in any way.

It's obviously not helpful to anyone to view men just as potential rapists.
It would be terrible if men saw woman as only potential to falsely accused them. While there's always a small chance the likelihood of it happening is absolutely minute.