Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

helpfulperson my experience is similar to yours which is why I say I also don't get it.
I've hiked across the country alone and slept in a bivvy bag in fields.

I remember a post on here where a woman posted about an incident where she was walking along at night and saw a man in the distance. He wasn't walking her way, didn't look at her or see her, yet she was terrified.
This bears no resemblance to any of my experiences, and I just didn't get it on a personal level, although I of course sympathised with her and the experiences she must have had to lead her to feel like that.

I DO assess every situation, instinctively and pretty much constantly. I'm vigilant and alert in a way my husband isn't. I'm not afraid, but I am exhausted by the end of the day from being primed the whole time. I wonder how men and women's daily cortisol levels compare?

No. Other than since I started reading FWR thinking am I supposed to be living my life like this? I still don't.

DH is a huge 6ft 4in barrel-chested man. He's not going to understand what is is to feel threatened by walking down a quiet street after dusk.

But now we have daughters, who are about to get to an independent age where they will be hanging out with friends and coming home on their own. I think now he's looking at their safety he gets a glimmer of what we have to think about and worry about - but it's not the same as having the fear yourself. We've talked about picking sensible ways home (not the scenic route down by the river when it'll just be you on your own) AND we've talked about why it's not bloody fair, and the world shouldn't be that way but still don't walk home at dusk by yourself by the river.

And I don't live in constant fear, but in my 20s I was walking home off the night busses in London at 3am late opening restaurant and there was a certain amount of caution and changing of routes etc. I am an over-thinker though; I always pick my exit in a cinema not the main route in, as most people will go out the way they came in, have a primary and secondary meet up point at theme parks/days out in London etc; a special code word that DDs know that means shut up and move, but would also be a password for them if I send someone to collect them - or for them to use to alert me to the fact they're in difficulty but can't tell me directly.

Ariadne, you don't have to! I love that you don't live your life like that. I hope most women don't. Personally I'm an anxious person. I check the cat is breathing, and roll my eyes at myself as I do so. Im a nervous Nellie, with no significant reason to be.

No, this is not in the back of my mind

I think it is at an instinctive level...even if you don't recognise it consciously. We have many instinctive flight/flight instincts operating just below the level of consciousness.

Equality of opportunity and so on is one thing.....and a good thing, obviously...but I do think we need to fully recognise vulnerabilities too. The fight for equal rights has tended to mean that these specific vulnerabilities have been denied or repressed in many instances.

Even though we now see women boxing professionally, for example, or competing & performing in traditionally male arenas doesn't disguise the fact that Nicola Adams ( boxing champion) fought in women only competitions......for good reason......and which is why it is important to recognise that sex is real and one cannot really change sex no matter how one feels.

Neither do I. I am not in fear 24/7.

But what? When people tell you they feel this way you don't believe them?

I. Believe. Women.

I don't think most woman are very scared going through normal life.

However, I think if it's a common problem it's most likely due to the women affected being raised without a strong male role model in their household. Having had this I can't understand why any woman would feel so vulnerable.
It's probably one of a huge number of problems that a rise in single parenthood is responsible for.

No. Other than since I started reading FWR thinking am I supposed to be living my life like this? I still don't

We all have different backgrounds and experiences -even if united by the specific vulnerabilities of our femaleness. Many women have suffered sexual abuse or witnessed domestic violence either in childhood or later on as adults......while others have lived our lives free of that level of abuse or violence while still recognising on our own vulnerabilities. I certainly recognise mine......even as a strong, confident and outspoken woman......I've certainly experienced much unwanted make attention over the years, and felt very uncomfortable in certain situations...I absolutely recognise the instinctive level of threat that women experience - even as we learn to live with and manage it.

Consciousness raising is a wonderful thing. Allows one to see what is hiding in the shadows and operating beneath the surface.

male attention

*But what? When people tell you they feel this way you don't believe them8

i think many people, both male and female, do have difficulty empathising with others who have directly experienced situations unfamiliar to them....personally feel if one is open and honest there is always a shared human condition which can be recognised if one is open to feeling/seeing it.

I’m a woman and I don’t get it! I certainly don’t recognise the passage over copied from above.

However I don’t go around feeling like a victim.

“ I keep moving. I am always moving. I take the stairs, not the lift, never stand on the escalators if on my own, but walk up them instead. I don’t pause to look in shop windows, or watch buskers or the cup-and-ball conmen; I walk on, quickly, with purpose – because I like to get where I am going, yes, but also because I know it’s harder to hit a moving target. If you dart past the rest of the world, allow yourself to be a blur, you’re less likely to be noticed, to attract their attention, get them to question whether there’s something different about you that they either desire, fear, or feel powerful enough to exploit. Experience has taught me perpetual motion is my greatest protection.”

“ I keep moving. I am always moving. I take the stairs, not the lift, never stand on the escalators if on my own, but walk up them instead. I don’t pause to look in shop windows, or watch buskers or the cup-and-ball conmen; I walk on, quickly, with purpose – because I like to get where I am going, yes, but also because I know it’s harder to hit a moving target. If you dart past the rest of the world, allow yourself to be a blur, you’re less likely to be noticed, to attract their attention, get them to question whether there’s something different about you that they either desire, fear, or feel powerful enough to exploit. Experience has taught me perpetual motion is my greatest protection.”

This was not written by a woman. Besides it’s all wrong. Darting past the rest of the world/perpetual motion does attract attention.

without a strong male role model

Depends on your definition of masculine strength, though......and even children of single parents can have loving and close relationships with other male relatives; grandfathers, uncles and so on.

I think boys, rather than girls, are more vulnerable to lack of direct, positive, male role model.

But what? When people tell you they feel this way you don't believe them?

I. Believe. Women

Please point to the post where I said I don't believe what people are saying. You can't- because I haven't.

You might try applying your own doctrine and believe that for this particular woman this culture of constant fear bears no resemblance to her life.

I also refer to the original title and would claim that it is not a reality that women are unsafe in the UK, in fact it is one of the safest countries in the world and the chances of being attacked while just innocently walking along are about the equivalent of winning the lottery, it's almost certainly not going to happen.

The problem is likely one that you have and would definitely be wise to seek professional help, as it can't be nice to feel this way.

Interesting video on the BBC about what happens when women start to design cities rather than men. It's something they're trialling in Barcelona at the moment.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/embed/p07t2tpj/50658537

Basically, there are more toilets, less cars, more benches, more open spaces, more use of public transport and much more effective reporting of sexual harassment amongst other things.

I think it basically comes down to the premise of getting women into these positions whereby they're in authority to shape the world. Because I'm sure there are aspects of life that men just don't grasp for women, no matter how hard they try (and just for balance, I'm sure the opposite is true as well). It has to be 50/50.

The problem is likely one that you have and would definitely be wise to seek professional help, as it can't be nice to feel this way

No it can't be.....sounds like a trauma response.......but your response is very dismissive and lacking in depth of understanding or compassion.

Also dismissive, therefore, of the inherent vulnerabilities that we all face just being out in the world - beneath the civilised veneer...and women's specific physical vulnerabilities.

It is odd, isn't it...that when a trans person tells us they are terrified and suicidal and the most vulnerable of the vulnerable in society...that nobody is permitted to say it is a mental health issue......

I don't think most men get the level of awareness that women have to potential threat.
Most of my life I feel safe. I walk my dog alone at night for example. But I don't feel that secure everywhere and if I am somewhere I feel less safe, I am more aware. I work in a big city and feel much more vulnerable there, even though there are far more people around. Or maybe because there are more people around.

Please point to the post where I said I don't believe what people are saying.

I didn't say you don't believe them. I asked you if you don't believe them.

Well? Do you believe them?

the chances of being attacked

Instinctive fear or threat responses are not the exact same thing as direct experience or reality. Just because we have never been burgled, doesn't lead to us leaving our doors unlocked at night, does it? Or worrying that we have left our windows open .....or that we have left our purse on the front seat of the car...and so on.....

Yes, the reality for women is that the U.K. is very safe. Although it is true that No where is 100% safe.

Just because women fear for their safety, does not mean they are or were unsafe when they were afraid. The fear expressed here seems OTT compared to the reality.

I think to a certain extent everyone is aware and vigilant, that is just “street smarts” and applies to every man, woman, child.

I think victim blaming causes too much fear. The idea that you won’t get hurt if you do x,y,z. I’m of the opinion that if I get stabbed or murdered it won’t matter how vigilant or fearful or careful I was. That it is fate. If my number is up, it is up. So I have less fear.

It's probably one of a huge number of problems that a rise in single parenthood is responsible for.

That old chestnut.

I can't say there have been many occasions when I have actually feared for my life. Maybe once or twice I have been properly terrified. But the fact that I am almost certain to get home safely doesn't mean that along the way I won't be made to feel uncomfortable. I'm middle aged now so largely invisible. But as a younger woman it was hard to walk from A to B without at least one man commenting on my looks. If it was a compliment I was apparently supposed to be delighted with the attention and anything other than fawning gratitude was often met with anger. If it was an insult, they seemed to want to see me burst into tears. And then there's the groping...

I always got home safely, I didn't become a murder statistic. But why is it just accepted that we have to live like that and stop making a fuss about nothing? If men were made to feel self conscious and awkward every time they left the house between the ages of 13 and 35 or so, things would change.

I think to a certain extent everyone is aware and vigilant, that is just “street smarts” and applies to every man, woman, child.

I know for a fact that DH risk assesses situations, is wary around groups of lads, etc. and I know he's not alone. It's only sensible, and it's not only women who do it.
Maybe if he was 6'4" and barrel chested like a PP's DH he wouldn't be, who knows?